Author Topic: An original swage ball gun (Read 12624 times)

plastikosmd · « **on:** August 01, 2011, 12:52:22 AM »

This is an orginal rilfe built by S& GF Pierce of Grand Rapids , Mich. This rifle was purchased by Jerry F. deVaudereuil in 1969. The rifle was sold in 1990 for around 5000$. Jerry was able to buy the rilfe back after he realized his mistake some time later for 6750$. On the first box of tooling (and it is all there) the script states it is a swaged round ball gun. From what I understand, at some point Lester Cox designed a slug for the gun and that is how it has been shot in modern times based on the targets provided. From what I was told, Pierce was a contempoary of Billinghurst, studying under him. I am told the rilfe dates to around the civil war and was a 'sniper rifle.' Not sure, it seems pretty nice for a field gun, not sure if that is how they did it in those days. Anyway, now it is set up to shoot 45 caliber slugs and has done so quite well. There was a match card from Camp Perry 600yrd match where Mr. Cox took second with the same score as the person who took first. To break the tie, a second measurement was used, not sure what it means. Anyway, on with the pics
Case and some of the tooling

Open case

Open case

plastikosmd · « **Reply #1 on:** August 01, 2011, 12:52:52 AM »

Ok, here are the targets and the camp perry letter, 600yrd match, score was 48-3 by both top shooters, Winner, was Clyde Hill, there is also 61" noted (not sure what that is) Lester is #2, same score and 76", #3 is what appears to be Walter Grote , score 47-5, 4-6 are also listed.

Ten shot group by Mr. Cox

First five shots ever fired by Gerald

plastikosmd · « **Reply #2 on:** August 01, 2011, 12:53:21 AM »

Rifle together, some tooling and rods/drop tube etc

plastikosmd · « **Reply #3 on:** August 01, 2011, 12:53:43 AM »

The sights are pretty cool, the rear sight seems to have been made by some sort of coin or medal

The rear,

The front sight, there are a few, one has a bunch of wooden apatures, etc bobs that you put in, a turn of the century redfield!
Also some tooling/slugs etc

Rasch Chronicles · « **Reply #4 on:** August 01, 2011, 04:56:58 AM »

Sweet!

It's another real beautiful example of the gunmaker's art!

Best regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
Don’t get Snake Bit!!! But if you do…

alyce-james · « **Reply #5 on:** August 01, 2011, 05:31:50 AM »

I enjoyed the pictures you have shared with us. I found the brief write-up very interesting. Sweet for the second time.. Thanks. AJ

plastikosmd · « **Reply #6 on:** August 01, 2011, 01:54:03 PM »

You are welcome!

In thinking about this gun, it must have been some sort of transition piece? One box is marked as noted, swaged round ball. It was clearly set up with a false muzzle that is of the cross patch design. Maybe the term swage round ball does not mean what I think it means? Was cross paper used at some point for roundballs that were swaged? I will have to check the twist. Clearly Lester found the right combo for a cross paper slug.

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #7 on:** August 01, 2011, 07:08:47 PM »

Quote from: Plastikosmd on August 01, 2011, 01:54:03 PM

You are welcome!

In thinking about this gun, it must have been some sort of transition piece? One box is marked as noted, swaged round ball. It was clearly set up with a false muzzle that is of the cross patch design. Maybe the term swage round ball does not mean what I think it means? Was cross paper used at some point for roundballs that were swaged? I will have to check the twist. Clearly Lester found the right combo for a cross paper slug.

it does seem misleading. I wonder if there was a roundball twist barrel in it's history. I know of no instance where a round ball was cross, paper patched. perhaps the shooter started with a roundball bench gun, moved to this barrel and tools. Unless I missed something, all tools and targets were used with the bullet barrel. Is there any evidence that points to round ball except for the label on the box?
Regards,
Pletch

plastikosmd · « **Reply #8 on:** August 01, 2011, 08:15:13 PM »

No, only the label and the second box is just to hold the tooling. I am Guessin it is just a confusion in terms. The false muzzle is clearly set up for cross patching as is the tooling. It is either a misleading label, swaged ball means something different than it does or it was always shot this way.

Daryl · « **Reply #9 on:** August 01, 2011, 08:32:35 PM »

It is misleading, deceiving, or merely frustrating.

Swaged ball and swaged round ball have 2 different meanings to me & back then as well. Swaged ball meant swaged conical bullet (ball) or swaged elongated bullet (ball), not a round ball. A Swaged round ball has only one meaning and that was a round ball made by the act of swaging instead of casting, which by 1830, about all the military balls were produced by that method, so various calibres were available on the market, but mostly .52cal. through .65 cal. but others as well.

Ball and conical ball were terms referring to bullets after the switch to concicals was complete & round ball guns were not normally built any longer. Some people used the terms long balls, conical balls, heavy balls or just plain balls describing various bullets for various arms.

plastikosmd · « **Reply #10 on:** August 01, 2011, 09:24:51 PM »

this makes sense, just a confusion of terms. It seems it was built for conicals/slugs. That reminds me, I need to google and check the origin of military ball ammo in relation to my more modern 7,62x51

westerner · « **Reply #11 on:** August 01, 2011, 10:35:12 PM »

You're getting a nice collection of slug guns Plaz. You will be at Cody next spring, right? Those new clean bags should be broke in and dirty by then.

Joe.

plastikosmd · « **Reply #12 on:** August 01, 2011, 10:47:20 PM »

LOL

I shoot with a towel on my bags, it slips better. I also took note of your bag in your pic of the millard and thought wow, well used! Great minds.....

Daryl · « **Reply #13 on:** August 01, 2011, 11:35:29 PM »

I use talcum powder on the bags to get a smooth slide of the stock - I was taught that by some BR shooters back in the early 70's. The tan coloured smooth (chrome tanned) leather bags of course, are the best. The rough ones need more talc.

plastikosmd · « **Reply #14 on:** August 02, 2011, 12:33:14 AM »

More info
Owner that jerry sold to and re-bought from

A monogram on the lid of the box, Owner prior to Cox, Maybe the original?

Finally, the coin/medal reads
Daniel Ball & Co, Grand Rapids
Domestic and Foreign Exchange

Dphariss · « **Reply #15 on:** August 02, 2011, 12:38:42 AM »

Quote from: Plastikosmd on August 01, 2011, 08:15:13 PM

No, only the label and the second box is just to hold the tooling. I am Guessin it is just a confusion in terms. The false muzzle is clearly set up for cross patching as is the tooling. It is either a misleading label, swaged ball means something different than it does or it was always shot this way.

Wonderful rifle.

Its a classic slug gun layout but may have been recut to some extent at some time due to use or abuse. This would account for the "rework" comment and the need for a different bullet.
Round balls were not used much by serious target shooters by the time this rifle was built it was likely meant for 40 rod or 80 rod matches. (220 or 440 yards)
There was no reason to swage a round ball at the time this rifle was originally made. But slugs were often swaged. Both the two part bullets used in MLs that required swaging and cartridge bullets like the Sharps PP bullets that were cast and then brought to final form in a swage that was sold with the mould.
Ball and bullet have been are used interchangeably. The military uses "ball" to differentiate between ammo types. A blank is not "ball" ammunition.

Dan

Daryl · « **Reply #16 on:** August 02, 2011, 06:06:45 AM »

Dan's right - this rifle was most likely NEVER meant to shoot a round ball. Round ball bench guns using paper patches, etc., are of the 20th and 21st century - as-in, today. As far as I know. Roberts never mentioned them and by the 1860's, most target shooting clubs in the states were shooting some form of slug, ie: "elongaged" or "conical ball".

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #17 on:** August 02, 2011, 01:52:47 PM »

Quote from: Daryl on August 02, 2011, 06:06:45 AM

Dan's right - this rifle was most likely NEVER meant to shoot a round ball. Round ball bench guns using paper patches, etc., are of the 20th and 21st century - as-in, today. As far as I know. Roberts never mentioned them and by the 1860's, most target shooting clubs in the states were shooting some form of slug, ie: "elongaged" or "conical ball".

HI Daryl,
I need help here. Do you know of a round ball bench gun that uses paper patching? All that I see at Friendship use cloth patching and VERY tight ball/patch combinations.
Regards,
PLetch

Daryl · « **Reply #18 on:** August 02, 2011, 04:27:46 PM »

You're right Pletch - should have clarified that - no paper patching with round balls - ever, only cloth - that I am aware of & only relatively modern bench guns specifically built for round balls.

LynnC · « **Reply #19 on:** August 02, 2011, 07:21:23 PM »

To me, the term "swaged round ball' means to take the as cast and possibly out of round bullet and swage it round, actually cylindrical.

Just my thoughts............Lynn

plastikosmd · « **Reply #20 on:** August 03, 2011, 04:03:42 AM »

Monogram is Clyde Hill. It seems the rifle took first as it was his rifle, not sure what Lester shot in the 600 yrd match

Daryl · « **Reply #21 on:** August 03, 2011, 04:09:02 AM »

Quote from: Plastikosmd on August 01, 2011, 12:52:22 AM

On the first box of tooling (and it is all there) the script states it is a swaged round ball gun. [img width=700 height=523]

My question is - does it actually say "swaged round ball " or "swaged ball" There is a world of important difference.

plastikosmd · « **Reply #22 on:** August 03, 2011, 08:07:03 PM »

Hmm let me check. It is just some handwriting on the box of tools, smaller box in then pic, will let u know

plastikosmd · « **Reply #23 on:** August 15, 2011, 06:39:28 PM »

Swaged ball

Daryl · « **Reply #24 on:** August 15, 2011, 06:51:23 PM »

Thanks that explains it.

Swaged ball merely means it's a swaged bullet. The term 'ball' in synominous with 'bullet' in those days.

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Author Topic: An original swage ball gun (Read 12624 times)

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