Author Topic: Optimal powder load  (Read 20309 times)

Offline Kermit

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Optimal powder load
« on: August 08, 2011, 06:26:36 PM »
A friend sent me a link to another forum where RB bench loads were the topic. In the thread there was a post about a formula apparently developed by a Charles Davenport. He apparently calculated that the max efficient loading is 11.5 grains of powder per cubic inch of barrel volume. Not clear if this is applied only to RB, bench, or any RB rifle.

So:
bore diameter in inches divided by 2 (radius)
times that same number (radius squared)
times 3.1416 (pi)
times 11.5 (grains of powder)
times barrel length in inches
yields his best or maximum (not sure which) for that barrel

He adds 10% for flint ignition for pressure lost through the vent.

This gave me the following (rounded) for some of my guns:
28 grains for my 44" .25
119 grains for my 48" .50
142 grains for my 54" .54 (percussion chunk gun)

Interesting exercise. I can see all sorts of questions about variables not accounted for in the formula, but it does generate a number that's interesting to think about. Anyone know more about this formula? I'm sure there are opinions, yes?
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Daryl

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2011, 06:54:52 PM »
I've not heard of the formula, Kermit, but it certainly gives a healthy charge prediction.  The loads, 120gr. in a .50 and 140gr. in a .54 I find quite intersting as they are very close to the charges I recall from back in the 70's and 80's.  There is a reason for that, but it wasn't due to a formula such as you've provided. It was due to working up to a load that provided the best accuracy at 100 yards on paper. The shooting wasn't on gongs or tin cans or old TV's - a gong or TV has too big a 10 and X ring to tell anything meaningful. Ricochetts knock cans all over -without meaning. Paper is needed to see what's happening with every change.

I do find it intersting this formula came up with what we found through actual testing.  Yes - they are heavy loads. Yes, they were accurate. No-they don't shoot to the same point of impact as your 25 yard load.

I've never lost accuracy (w/qualifier) by adding more powder (within reason for the bore size) - IF (not 1F) and it's a big IF, the ball and patch combination remains viable, meaning the combination can handle the increased pressure.

(qualifier)-  I found I needed heavier/thicker patches and balls only .005" under bore size when desiring the best accuracy- which meant heavy loads.

Most people find fouling increases with heavier loads (their patches are failing), therefore accuracy is lost past a certain level of powder/velocity.  With the tighter combinations we usually use & increased powder charges, I find patch failure doesn't happen, but what does happen, is accuracy continues to improve until we cease adding more - ie; that's enough- and it comes very close to the predictions you've given, Kermit.

If I think back to the days when we mostly shot 100 yards or further, I recall we all loaded heavier than today.  We were surprised people actually shot at targets a mere 25 yards distant.  We were used to using heavy charges as we found they were needed to maintain accuracy at the longer ranges we normally shot - no big puzzle there.

Today, it seems people put great stock in 25 yard shooting & even do load develpment at that range while the more experienced know this is but a waste of time and powder. Those who shoot mostly close ranges can usually be identified by small for calibre powder charges as they've 'usually' never really worked up an accurate load for their rifles. Some are happy with whatever accuracy they get with an arbitrarily picked load combination and that's just fine.

 Those who desire the best their rifle can give them, need to know the can get it, but will have to work up the best load themselves and that usually means tighter combinations and much heavier loads - especially for the longer ranges.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2011, 07:29:06 PM »
I've read about this formula for years and it probably does ballpark the most efficient load for a given gun.  I don't care much for formulas and efficiency (for my purposes)  takes a back seat to accuracy and to power.    A .22LR is much more efficient than the .220 Swift but what if your quarry is 300yds distance.  Efficiency is just a "side dish" to the main course.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Daryl

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2011, 08:38:03 PM »
I seriously doubt those heavy per calibre charges are very efficient - they are more overbore in comparrison to modern stuff, than the reverse. Perhaps efficiency is the wrong term, if used with the formula - and most accurate or probably the 'best' all round load. 122gr. in a .50 is certanly not efficient, in terms of fps delivered per gr. of powder burned - where most people think in terms of efficiency, the ML loads and modern as well.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2011, 12:24:13 AM »
I would bet that when a good hunting/accuracy load is developed, it would probably be near the charge the formula gives.  That's the route I usually go.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Daryl

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2011, 12:31:12 AM »
My point exactly.

Leatherbelly

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2011, 03:13:12 AM »
Daryls optimal load:filler up to the top,leave room for the ball! hehehe

zimmerstutzen

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2011, 05:21:56 PM »
The formula is great for calculating an estimate of an efficient load, but skews off for really small calibers and those over 50.  I would suggest using it as a starting point for working up loads.  There are so many other factors, such as tightness of the patch and ball combination, the depth, shape and twist of rifling.  Granulation of powder etc.  It is also meant for paper punchers, not for grizzly hunting loads.

I think Davenport was on the right track, but his formula doesn't have an adjustment for the very small and very large calibers.    It is also for round balls.  Guys who start shooting slug guns at 300 yards are using a different type of artillery completely. 

There was the old advice about shooting over a white sheet and increasing loads until there was alot of soot/powder residue in front of the muzzle, then back off to the next lower load.  The person that taught me used a rule of thumb for load development of 1.5 x the caliber for a load to start testing accuracy.   Again, that is skewed off for vey small and very large calibers.   It also didn't take into account the barrel length.

A number of guys feel that just dumping more powder is good.     There does come a point at which with increasing loads, the powder fouling in the barrel increases substantially.  It is at that point that there is still a significant amount of powder burning when the ball leaves the muzzle.  Certainly for precision paper punching, keeping fouling uniform is improtant.  I think the formula may help with determining that point.   

zimmerstutzen

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2011, 05:39:19 PM »
Some folks get very agitated when anyone tries to introduce science into shooting and detest formulas of any kind.   There are others who vehemently deny that any powder is ever expelled unburned or even  still burning when the ball exits the muzzle even with massive loads in short barrels. 

I know the formula comes pretty close to the most accurate load in my target rifles.     

Offline bgf

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2011, 05:41:59 PM »
Daryls optimal load:filler up to the top,leave room for the ball! hehehe
That's only for 2F -- 3F he usually leaves 6 inches of barrel empty to keep pressure down :).

BrownBear

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2011, 05:43:47 PM »
If there was a clear measure of "efficient" or "optimal," then the formula might have some value.  I'm yet to find a rifle or smoothbore that had the least respect for the formula when it came to accuracy.  

Being laaaaazy and disinclined to do all the measuring and calculating preliminary to applying a questionable formula, I just flick the pages of my Lyman manual for a starting load.  That's just as useful to me, because using either source you still have to dink around with loads to find what a gun likes best.

"Efficiency" has no bearing for me or any gun I've ever known.

Offline volatpluvia

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2011, 06:25:10 PM »
And once you have any experience at all, you know where to start.  Volatpluvia
I believe, therefore I speak.  Apostle Paul.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2011, 07:57:49 PM »
No way UNBURNED powder can exit a muzzle-blasted ball of fire.  Excess powder not burned in the bore is burned outside.  Just my opinion, of course, but also backed up by logic.  Starting out your load search with a formula is the wrong way to go about it though it might be a handy method for wet tyros.  For those with much real experience it makes more sense to work up a load "the old fashion way" by using accuracy as the key.  As I mentioned previously the results (hunting load) will probably be in the formula's ball park, anyway.  An accurate target load probably won't but it will be well within the parameters. 

What if you're at the point of diminishing returns - say 10grns only adds 35fps?    Well, if the extra velocity is worth the powder to the shooter and accuracy either tightens or remains the same, then it would be "efficient" in the individual's case.  I likely wouldn't consider it worth it but that's just me.  What I'm saying is "efficiency" can be a relative term depending on what level of PERFORMANCE is desired.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Daryl

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2011, 08:56:43 PM »
And once you have any experience at all, you know where to start.  Volatpluvia

You are quite right - many don't which is why we constantly get the questions and someone past or present comes up with a formula.

The way I see it, the formula actually gives loads at the top-end of the hunting load range, or for long range target accuracy - 100yards or beyond - .50 cal. and above.  The loads the formula provides are not what I would call starting, getting aquainted-type loads, but perhaps might be close what a finishing load might look like - IF the shooter actually went that far. It would take a tighter combination than most shooters here appear to use, in order to handle the pressure generated by these top-end loads for hunting-type rifles.  Does it take that much powder to kill a deer - of course not - many have been shot with .36cal revolvers (perhaps many lost, too). It might take that much velocity and accuracy to thread or blast your ball through the bush to kill that deer or moose, though.

The 142gr. charge it gave for .54 cal. is right where I found 4 different makes of .58 calibre rifles started shooting their best. That was 3 different rifling twists as well, yet they all shot 140gr. & more wonderfully.  Of the 5 rifles, each had a different style of rifling as well, yet each 'started shooting exceptionally well at that load. I increased loads 10gr. per group, starting at 90gr., repeating if I wasn't satisfied with the holds or sighting. All shooting was done at 100 yards- double bagged.

 

Offline hanshi

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2011, 09:25:19 PM »
My impression is that it indeed does outline the high end loads as you suggest.  It is also my experience that it doesn't take a lot of power to kill a deer.  It's with this in mind that the .45 prb has been my favorite whitetail round for several years, now.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

BrownBear

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2011, 10:04:04 PM »
There are so many exceptions and interpretations and justifications in the formula, it reminds me of laws. 

I wonder if Mr. Davenport and his champion are lawyers?   ;)

Daryl

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2011, 01:08:40 AM »
HA! - if not, certainly engineers, scientists - or accountants. It takes a certain personality to even think the process needs a formula.  I'm merely surprised it worked so well in the 'middle' calibres.

zimmerstutzen

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2011, 01:32:37 AM »
As I predicted those who have never done any testing come out of the woodwork with all the derrogatory remarks.   

Hanshi:  I'll make a deal with you.  I'll fire twenty shots over a piece of oil cloth,we'll gather the residue that gathers on it and if you can hold it in your bare hand for thirty seconds, after I light it, without grimacing,  I'll buy you a case of beer.  I made the same offer to others and they never took me up on it.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2011, 01:48:27 AM »
  

Hanshi:  I'll make a deal with you.  I'll fire twenty shots over a piece of oil cloth,we'll gather the residue that gathers on it and if you can hold it in your bare hand for thirty seconds, after I light it, without grimacing,  I'll buy you a case of beer.  I made the same offer to others and they never took me up on it.
[/quote]

Only if you (try to) light it without burning me with a match. ;D
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2011, 01:50:22 AM »
HA! - if not, certainly engineers, scientists - or accountants. It takes a certain personality to even think the process needs a formula.  I'm merely surprised it worked so well in the 'middle' calibres.


Our word today, boys and girls, is ANAL.  Can anyone spell ANAL.  ;D
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Kermit

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2011, 02:54:30 AM »
Come on, boys and girls, play nice! I'm guessing that calculations like this are done by folks who have powder scales and chronogrqphs and such. They are also curious and are willing to invest a bunch of time in their brand of shooting. I've got nothing against the ultra primitive trekker who won't use anything that they can't document in first-person sources and carry in their haversack or against the fellow with the big Winnebago who shoots a bells-and-whistles slug gun and micromanages every aspect of every shot, down to teflon coated patches. It's all good fun, and to each his own.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

roundball

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2011, 03:12:09 AM »

"...It takes a certain personality to even think the process needs a formula..."


Truer words were never spoken.

BrownBear

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2011, 07:14:45 AM »
As I predicted those who have never done any testing come out of the woodwork with all the derrogatory remarks.   

Here's the problem.  The formula is presented as finished "science."  Ain't even close.

The heart of science is the Scientific Method.  You propose a hypothesis and you test it. If it doesn't prove out, you modify or change your hypothesis and test it again.  You LEARN FROM your failures, you don't just try to explain them away to justify the original hypothesis.

As a first hypothesis, the Davenport Formula isn't bad science.  The bad science comes in defending it, rather than modifying it and testing the modified version.

After nineteen more modifications and tests it might stand the light of day.  In it's current form it's a proven failure, and attempts to cover for it are pseudo-science.  Writing off the criticism as "derrogatory remarks" rather than accepting them and working to pose another version of the fomula for testing is pure spin.  And we get enough of that from Congress today to sour everyone's appetite for spin.

Change the formula and put it out for more testing.  Folks will be more than willing to test the new version and report their successes and failures.  Heck, it would be a lot of fun.  That's the science that the Davenport Formula pretends to.  It's not there yet.   Time to quit defending the failures and get on with the science.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2011, 03:21:52 PM »
Seems to me that we should be able to work the Golden Mean into this formula somewhere.    You guys take all the fun out of shooting.   I always enjoyed shooting and playing around with different loads.    I found the best thing to improve
accuracy was a scope...................Don

roundball

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Re: Optimal powder load
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2011, 03:34:54 PM »

Here's the problem.  The formula is presented as finished "science."  Ain't even close.

The heart of science is the Scientific Method.  You propose a hypothesis and you test it. If it doesn't prove out, you modify or change your hypothesis and test it again.  You LEARN FROM your failures, you don't just try to explain them away to justify the original hypothesis.

As a first hypothesis, the Davenport Formula isn't bad science.  The bad science comes in defending it, rather than modifying it and testing the modified version.

After nineteen more modifications and tests it might stand the light of day.  In it's current form it's a proven failure, and attempts to cover for it are pseudo-science.  Writing off the criticism as "derrogatory remarks" rather than accepting them and working to pose another version of the fomula for testing is pure spin.  And we get enough of that from Congress today to sour everyone's appetite for spin.

Change the formula and put it out for more testing.  Folks will be more than willing to test the new version and report their successes and failures.  Heck, it would be a lot of fun.  That's the science that the Davenport Formula pretends to.  It's not there yet.   Time to quit defending the failures and get on with the science.


Quote

Posted by: Don Getz Posted on: Today at 08:21:52 AM
Insert Quote
Seems to me that we should be able to work the Golden Mean into this formula somewhere.    You guys take all the fun out of shooting.   I always enjoyed shooting and playing around with different loads.    I found the best thing to improve
accuracy was a scope...................Don


BrownBear and Don...extremely well said...maybe even candidates for a "sticky".

I don't personally care if someone wants to take the easy way out and modernize this grand old form of shooting/hunting...wants to defend their use of modern formulas...FOR THEMSELVES...but they should do it on the modern inline forums where it bleongs, not on good traditionally oriented forums such as this one, and a couple others.

Rather than defending the applicability of inappropriate modern formulas in a traditional muzzleloading environment, keyboard theories need to be replaced with real shooting and testing, amassing real hands on experience, etc...
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 03:43:43 PM by roundball »