Help with ID of old muzzleloader

[union son]

This is believed to be a Pennsylvania rifle, but I'd appreciate some of your eyes on it to zero in further on its identification. The percussion lock doesn't appear to be original as the mortise work around it is not as neatly done as the rest of the gun. The name J Martin is stamped on the lock, but that may be a false lead. There are no other markings on it. The barrel is octagon near the breach and it tapers to a round barrel. It measures .50 caliber at the barrel. The barrel and stock look (to me) as perfect, original matches to each other. I cannot see any rifling in the barrel.

This link takes you to the basic photos: http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/abaction/PA%20rifle%20photos/

This link takes you to many more photos, if needed: http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/abaction/

Any input would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[msmith]

It looks like a fowler but with such a thick muzzle maybe a buck & ball...Has the Whale Tail finial and Roman nose stock ,looks like  a Susquehana PA gun..The J Martin was most likly just the maker of the lock..Nice looking gun...

[James]

Doesn't the presence of a patchbox and cheekpiece rule out fowler?

[nord]

Welcome to ALR! Glad you made the trip from AG. The guys there aren't really up on this type of gun.

I'll move the Whisker comment and my own over here in a day or two. Let's see what the folks here have to say first.

[nord]

James,

I've been taught never to say never. In this case the muzzle detail clearly shows a thick-walled barrel. I tend to think this piece had a long working life and was re-bored perhaps several times.

I'd also not be surprised if this is an original smooth rifle. A buck and ball gun if you will.

[msmith]

In the Grindslades Fowler book he has quite a few guns he calls fowlers with Patchboxes...I can see the muzzle and there is no rifling & with the oct to round , doubt they ever was...single  trigger is more common on a fowler than on a rifle of that era..Cheek piece are more common on rifles for sure...

[msmith]

Does have both sights..Smooth rifle is the probably  proper name.

[Spotz]

Although I have seen a variation of this finial on rifles from the Upper Susquehanna, piercings on the sideplates and sideplates tend to be a bit different.  Provenance to its location, who may have owned it and where they lived would be a help since it has a Berks influence.  I tend to think it is from southeastern PA, but others can disagree.  There is just a bit more of a hump on the profile than you see in the Upper Susquehanna. 

[James]

Thanks for taking the time to help me learn. I appreciate it.

[union son]

My ancestors did settle in the Upper Susquehanna region and Berks County, in particular. This is a family heirloom. So, the Berks County influence does add up. We are only certain of 3 generations who had it before me, but family lore has it going back several more generations. It was claimed that this was used in the Revolutionary conflict, but that probably isn't accurate. It may have seen participation in the Civil War as most volunteers showed up with whatever they had. I dunno

[JTR]

Nice gun, and thanks for posting it!
I'd think it a Berks gun more than upper Susquehanna, as Spotz suggests. And it doesn't really have much to suggest a specific maker.
Personally, I'd call it a buck and ball as opposed to a smooth rifle or fowler, but that's just me. I have a gun with a part octagon/ part round barrel with front and rear sight, with straight rifling. You might look deep into the barrel for any signs of rifling.
As for the Rev War connection; not likely, as the gun isn't that old. It could have been around for the War of 1812 though.

It looks like your family is taking good care of it, so keep doing whatever you've been doing!

John

[Dan'l 1946]

 It's a tough call, but "buck and ball" is the best answer, I think. The conversion to percussion was done in the usual fashion, and probably not long after the gun was made. The lock mortise appears to be eroded from use and removing the lock for cleaning. Dan

[union son]

I just did a little research and found that the branch of the family that this was believed to have come from hailed from Dauphin County, PA. I believe they lived North of Harrisburg. They later lived in Armstrong County which is NE of Pittsburgh. Dauphin is not far from Berks. That's all in the Susquehanna area (except for Armstrong).

I really appreciate all of the thoughts posted.

[union son]

When I looked up "Dauphin Rifle", I found this link first. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6141.0

Very interesting. It looks like the guns from the Harrisburg area were rather plain (like this one) but with alot of Berks/Susquehanna influence. There also don't seem to be many examples around. Also mentioned was that some of these guns tended to be longer than others from the era beyond the major military conflicts. Breach to muzzle measures 37" and the entire gun is about 53". Ya think I could have one of those?

I looked further down the bore with a thin, flexible light and was able to see just past the 16" that it reached. I couldn't see any evidence of rifling. I don't have anything to look deeper. I don't think I would want to disassemble it to look from the breech.

[Fullstock longrifle]

This gun has a patchbox that's very similar to the Angstadt swivel breech rifle patchbox that's featured on the cover of Patrick Hornberger's book on Berks County longrifles.  

FK

[union son]

I looked at the cover of that book and saw that it was indeed, very similar. I looked at examples of other Angstadt guns by Adam, Peter, and Gideon Angstadt. They share alot of similarities like the shape of the cheek piece and the markings on the lock (as if they bought their locks from the same guy).

Thanks for pointing me in that direction.