Smoothbore accuracy.

[WRDSMTH]

I am new to the smoothbore shooting and would like to know what kind of accuracy I can expect. I do not feel comfortable hunting with the gun unless I can keep all of my shots in a six inch circle at fifty yards off the bench. So far I have been unable to do this.
I have been using a .600 ball with a .015 ticking patch and various lubes...this combination is fairly easy to load,but a short starter is a must.
I tried a .610 ball and it had to be hammered into the bore.
Several different loads of both 2F and 3F have been tried... I still get a lot of wild shots. Does one have to use pure lead or is scrap...usually wheel weights OK?


 

[Greg S Day]

I have a 62 cal. gun built as a smooth rifle (rear sights).  I shoot 2" to 3" groups off the bench at 50 yds.

I've heard some of the guys talk about using a felt wad under the patched ball.  Said it helps center the ball in the bore.  I didn't see much difference with it.

It may be tough to stay consistant without a rear sight.

Some of the more experienced "fowler" guys can comment.

Greg

[Roger Fisher]

Well Smitty you landed on a good site here with a lot of good info and some not so good - (mine might not be so hot)

Since you are shooting from a bench are you laying the forearm in the palm of your hand and that hand resting on say a sand bag??  If you are resting the forearm on a hard block she will recoil off that hard rest but you already know that.

No rear sight, flinter, single trigger you should be able to keep them generally in that 6 inch 8 ring black round bullseye from a rest....! At 50 yds

The offhand matches with smoothies around here are such that if you manage to do that  you are in the running for winning or placing... You won't be carrying that bench hunting; but improvising a rest when shootin at deer be it a tree or whatever is the way to go (but do not rest the piece solid against said tree since she will bounce away from that

I use a .530 ball and .014 spit patch in my 28 gauge at the shoots...65 2 F  at 25 & 75 2 f at 50 yds

btw do not shoot a flinter out of a truck window since you will be cleaning windows for weeks...

I see no problem with ww in a smoothy.  Others may challenge that!

[Roger Fisher]

I have a 62 cal. gun built as a smooth rifle (rear sights).  I shoot 2" to 3" groups off the bench at 50 yds.

I've heard some of the guys talk about using a felt wad under the patched ball.  Said it helps center the ball in the bore.  I didn't see much difference with it.

It may be tough to stay consistant without a rear sight.

Some of the more experienced "fowler" guys can comment.

Greg

Hmmmm North Central Penna!!! Do U shoot at Sheshequin and the 'Pines'??

[Leatherbelly]

  Myself,I would go to a .020 patch if that smoothie is a .62. I like 2f goex. I've played with charges from 60 thru 80 grains. 60 is nice for plinking,80 gr for hunting. Others may vary. With a .600 ball and a .620 bore, tighten up that patch a little. Betcha it'll group just fine.

[Greg S Day]

Roger,

I've never attended a real shootin' type shoot!!!  Sheshequin sounds like route 14 above Trout Run?

A couple guys told me about a shoot with the Union County club.  First Sunday of each month.  Still haven't made one of those.

I'm in Williamsport.

Greg

[Roger Fisher]

Roger,

I've never attended a real shootin' type shoot!!!  Sheshequin sounds like route 14 above Trout Run?

A couple guys told me about a shoot with the Union County club.  First Sunday of each month.  Still haven't made one of those.

I'm in Williamsport.

Greg

Yes!           Union County yes also,  look them up  Get hold of the Penna Federation of Blk Powder clubs booklet maps phone # etc.  If you need more info let me know. 

Your missing out on a lot of fun competition...........

[Daryl]

Taylor and I shot LB's smoothie at 25 yards, and with 4 of us shooting 1 or 2 shots each, we made a hole that wasn't 1" between centres.  Antoher 20 bore, one that Taylor was working on for a fellow from Kansas, was benched by us in testing.  I think the load was around 85gr. 2F and with a very tightly patched .595" ball.  I made a 5 shot group at 50 yards that a 3 1/2" circle would enclose all the holes. I guess I had my hat on right that day.   I've heard of 1" groups off the bags at 50 yards with only a front sight or even with 2 sights, but I've never seen it with a smoothbore.  It's tough enough to consistantly get 1" with a hunting rifle, let alone a gun without grooves & maybe only a front blade. A short starter most definitely was necessary with the load from Kips gun, and we automatically usd one with LBs' gun. We used a .025" denim patch with the .595" ball, a great shooting load in both guns. We may have only been shooting 75 to 80gr.2F in LB's gun.

 I do think , however, that a reasonable expectation with the 'best' load for that gun, would be to put 3 consecutive balls into 3", almost every time at 50 yards off the bags. That is certainly do-able.-(is that a word?)

[T*O*F]

I've heard of 1" groups off the bags at 50 yards with only a front sight or even with 2 sights, but I've never seen it with a smoothbore.  It's tough enough to consistantly get 1" with a hunting rifle, let alone a gun without grooves

It's a law of physics that a body in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by and outside force.  Since this is true, rifling should make no difference in accuracy in a roundball gun at the distances being shot.  If they both leave the muzzle headed for the 10 ring, they should both hit the 10 ring.  Therefore some outside force must be acting on the smoothbore ball.  What might that outside force be that differentiates it from a spinning rifle ball?

The only one I can think of is using cast balls with a sprue.  The spinning ball would counteract any wobble the sprue might cause.  However, with swaged balls they should both be equally accurate.  Whereas an elongated bullet can tumble, it really makes no difference if a roundball does, because it's round and will always present in identical surface to air's friction.

This is a ballistics problem, so opinions don't really count.  Does anyone have adequate scientific background to prove otherwise?

[Robby]

TOF, I don't have anything scientific, but I always thought of a smoothie as a pitcher throwing knuckle balls, even he can't control exactly what its going to do, only the direction that its going.
I once had a 20Ga. smoothie that proved to me on the range that I could trust it out to 80yds., and I did. Took a lot of game with it, if I could have figured a way to put a fishing reel on it I would have, but, like a lot of you have stated here, "gee I wish I had kept that gun".

[T*O*F]

TOF, I don't have anything scientific, but I always thought of a smoothie as a pitcher throwing knuckle balls, even he can't control exactly what its going to do, only the direction that its going.

Only applies to unpatched balls, not tightly patched roundballs which do not bounce or spin up the bore.

[Robby]

I'm not sure, but, are you saying that a patched ball from a smooth bore isn't erratic?

[Longknife]

QUOTE : Therefore some outside force must be acting on the smoothbore ball.  What might that outside force be that differentiates it from a spinning rifle ball?

By golly you old fox, I think you got it!!!!! Those outside forces are making me miss....THE FORCE BE WITH YOU  (and me) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Daryl]

Good questions, TOF - Now, I seem to think most people know a gun without rifling isn't as accurate as one that has that advantage. If it wasn't an advantage, they'd not have caught on.
 Aside from Mike's outside forces - ATF, FBI, NRA, FEEBA or whatever, balls pitched at high speed sooner or later take on a spin from the atmosphere itself.  I've seen this from the smoothies I've shot - both smokeless and black powder smoothbores.  The balls were held rigidly and did not get a chance to spin in the tube.At 25 yards, shooting .682" round balls without sprues & filed very smoothly and rolled, using a 10X scope, I put 5 consecutive balls into just a tich larger group than the diameter of one ball- perhaps 1/2 again ball size. Theoretically, this accuracy would hold at 50 yards and 100 yards pluss some error for the shooter - according to your statement.

 So much for theory. Instead of shooting a .51" group on centres at 50 yards, I barely made some 2" to 2 1/2" groups, most at 3" - 10X scope, mind you.  At 100 yards, I just managed to keep them in an 8" group, 30% larger than largest 50 yard groups.  At 150 yards, I couldn't put 5 consecutive on a 3" square sheet of paper. So much for smoothbores.

 TOF - you tell me what caused them to go astray - physics answers it quite well.  SOMETHING is acting upon the ball to make it spin or fly of course.  There must, as I said, be a spinning motion imparted to the knuckle ball and it must be caused by the atomospher.   I know how to shoot off the bags as I do considerable load testing with bench rests, along with the BR experience - maybe 15,000 rounds a year plus some BP shooting.

[Robby]

A smooth bore fired in a vacuum would be propelled straight and true, friction with the atmosphere on an irregular surface  would cause its path to bend and yaw,as well as turn its surface exposing new irregularities to face the frictions maximum impact on that new surface, causing the path to bend and yaw in a new direction exposing a new surface irregularity to the friction until the ball hits the mitt or the ball hopefully hits the target. It can be minimized, but will always be unpredictable. Thats why catchers drop so many pitched knuckle balls and batters, knowing they are coming, still have trouble hitting them, they are not predictable. The pitcher can throw towards the mitt, but even he doesn't know where it will impact.
With my smooth bore, out to eighty yards I was confident of only a 3" radius of my aim point, usually better than that but I always figure the worst. What I found had the biggest impact on consistence was the ball itself, patching and lube made a difference, but not as big as the ball itself. I used a .595 lee mould, because it left virtually no sprue, weighed each of them, that helped, what made a bigger difference in making a smaller predictable impact area was dimpling the balls. I made a tumbler from an old stainless steel bowl, drilled a hole in the bottom center, ran a bolt through it, covered the exposed bolt with duct tape and mounted it on a varial speed motor, which I configured in such a way, that the bowl was at around a 45 degree angle. After inspecting and weighing, I threw them in the tumbler and walked away. When done they looked like miniature golf balls. It worked for me.

[crispy]

I use 60 grains of 3F in my 28 ga,, .530 ball an roughly 18 thou patch,, my gun shoots pretty good an although I havn't done any bench shooting lately, I'm pretty sure it will do better than 4 inch at 50 yards with a rest . Now I'm prob goin to have to go out an bench it for a day just to see how well  it performs

[Daryl]

TKS, Robby-  I wondered if anyone had figured out an easy way to dimple round balls.
: Crispy, be prepared to shoot many groups.  Try 5 shot groups as 2 or 3 don't tell the tale of the consistancy or lack thereof.  The bigger the bore, the more accurate, generally.  Of course, to be effective on game, bigger bores need even more powder/hiogher velocity to gain hits & thus recoil starts to become tiring.  Yes - I know a 40gr. charge will propell a 12 bore ball fast enough to kill something.  Actually hitting that something where it's needed then becomes the exercise.  The lighter the charge, the more accurate, normally, but also is the trajectory increased. There must be a tradeoff somewhere.

[roundball]

I'm surprised at the comments about larger calibers being more accurate, and slower velocities being more accurate.

My own shooting is limited to a fraction of others I'm sure, but I had arrived at the opposite conclusions...ie: .my .54cal smoothbore is extremely accurate...and while  my .62cal is accurate, the .54 wins....maybe just load development differences.

Also, PRBs from my smoothbores seemed to be more accurate the faster I pushed them...as if keeping them under a head of steam for more of the distance to the target, the knuckle-bal effect was minimized...maybe just coincidences, dunno.

[Robby]

RB, This may sound wacky, but This is what I think. I call it harmony or frequency. Sort of like a thin shaft spinning in variable lathe, you may start out at a fairly low speed and it runs smooth and true, bumping it up a few hundred r.p.m.'s and it scares the $#@* out of you, thinking its going to fly out of the machine, but keep raising the r.p.m.'s and it smoothes out and runs true again. I call the times it runs badly the "bend moment"(I don't know why). I believe every thing has a bend moment and a harmony. I think of gun barrels this way also, if it has a low velocity load that shoots well, then there will be a high velocity load that will shoot just as well, you just have to find that harmonic convergence, shooting through the bend moment can be trying and frustrating, but that other sweet spot is in there somewhere. This may be all B.S., but I believe in it and it has always proven true to me in many things, not just shooting. Or maybe I can't explain myself very well.
   Robby

[LynnC]

This bring up the sound barrier effect.  Much has been made of the fact that .22 match ammo is loaded to sub sonic velocity.  Something about dropping thru the sound barrier affects accuracy.  SO, how does it effect a round ball going thru the sound barrier, especially when fired from a smoothbore?.............Lynn

[Dphariss]

I am new to the smoothbore shooting and would like to know what kind of accuracy I can expect. I do not feel comfortable hunting with the gun unless I can keep all of my shots in a six inch circle at fifty yards off the bench. So far I have been unable to do this.
I have been using a .600 ball with a .015 ticking patch and various lubes...this combination is fairly easy to load,but a short starter is a must.
I tried a .610 ball and it had to be hammered into the bore.
Several different loads of both 2F and 3F have been tried... I still get a lot of wild shots. Does one have to use pure lead or is scrap...usually wheel weights OK?

Smoothbores always throw fliers.
I have never seen one that did not.

6" at 50 yards benched is very marginal unless hunting large game. Because shooting under field conditions will enlarge the group maybe to 10".
With trial and error you should be able to get down to 4-41/2" at 50 RELIABLY.
This means it will AWAYS do this well. Not best of the day or best 3 out of 5.
People who tell me they shoot 2-3" groups at 50 with a smooth bore need to tally the size of 5-10 groups and see if there are no fliers.
In my experience the flier will come at the worst possible time. Like when you are hunting. Thats when the flier will rise up and give you a problem.
 
Dan

[northmn]

The spin of the rifling moves the center of gravity to the center axis of the ball. Kind of like all the weight of the ball being thrown to an imaginary line going front to back in the center.  This is what keeps it on track.  You are not just talking about the sprue, but unseen air inclusions and out of round ball.  When you weigh balls they do not all weigh the same due to imperfections.  Also, after seating the ball there may be indentations from loading that make it slightly lopsided or catch the air.  Another example.  When I use broadheads on an arrow I use a very spiraled fletching to keep them spinning or they can plane all over the place.  Perfectly round round balls should shoot very tight out of a smoothbore.  Is there such a thing as perfectly matched ball?  Rfles shoot relatively accurately with some amazingingly poor cast ball.

DP

[Daryl]

RB - I used to this the same about speed and smoothbores - accuracy and knuckle-balls.  I've found size matters as a 12 or 10 bore seems to be more accurate at 100 yards, than a smaller bore size.  My experience with 28 bore smooth bores is limited, though, very limited.  If a .54 can manage the 8" to 10" at 100 yards - on paper for 3 to 10 groups, I'd really like to see that.  The 12 will, and I've seen Taylor's 10bore do the same.

[northmn]

When I shot my smoothbores that was one of the reasons I liked the Bess and my 12 bore.  They seemed to be more accurate. 

DP

[Robby]

I agree Daryl, the bigger the ball, the less it seems to be affected by all factors, especially its passage  through the air.