Author Topic: More Graver Questions  (Read 7120 times)

DFHicks

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More Graver Questions
« on: August 19, 2011, 06:20:40 PM »
First  of all my apologies for not replying more quickly to the responses to my July 2 post on tempering gravers.  Thanks for all the great information. Proper lighting is always an issue with gun building and Metalshaper was right about getting out into shaded sunlight.  Kutter's recommendation to use a cigarett lighter for tempering a graver worked like a charm!  I was making 1/8" (more or less) square gravers out of annealed chainsaw files.  I used an angle grinder and files to square the round file section and the tang became the point.  I have the small (1" x 2") jewelers graver guide sold by Contenti Jewlers Supply.  It's OK for the 45 degree face but it's made in India and is not very precise.  The Brooks technique takes care of the heels.  Despite having solved the problem of tempering gravers, it began to seem the long way around.  So I bought some 1/8" HSS blanks from Enco @ $1.00 apiece.  Knowing very little about steel I annealed one of these in order to shape it.  To my surprise it was as hard as ever after being brought to a bright red.  So I used the angle grinder and bench grinder to shape it.  Finished the face and heels as before.  It cuts well but is this the best steel to use given how hard it it to shape?  With my minimal skill level would the W-1 tool steel mentioned in one of the July 2 replies be a better choice for me?  I should tell you I have  ordered the Steve Lindsay Universal Sharpening Template with the 4 recommended diamond stones.  There are so many positive comments about it that I thought it would be a good investment. This may change your thoughts on my above questions.
Finally the last question: I am using sections of seasoned sourwood about 1" in diameter for graver handles.  This is a moderately hard wood and conveniently has a soft pith in the middle.  I drill this out and drive in the graver.  For my experimental stage this is fine, but it will likely split after much use.  What are some better ideas for someone without a lathe?  Thanks for your patience in wading through all of this!

Offline T*O*F

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2011, 09:03:03 PM »
Quote
So I bought some 1/8" HSS blanks from Enco @ $1.00 apiece.  Knowing very little about steel I annealed one of these in order to shape it.  To my surprise it was as hard as ever after being brought to a bright red.  So I used the angle grinder and bench grinder to shape it.  Finished the face and heels as before.  It cuts well but is this the best steel to use given how hard it it to shape?
These are to be used "as is" and you sharpen them in the state in which you receive them.

Using a grinder is not the best way to shape them, and roughing out takes a fair bit of time.  Once you receive Steve's templates and stones, then you can do it properly.  Once shaped, you only have to touch them up infrequently......unless you break the tip, in which case you will have to reshape them again.

Wood handles are not the optimum choice because you will continue to drive the tip into the wood farther and they will probably loosen up.  Aluminum or brass rod fitted with a set screw is a better choice.  Also, installing a round headed carriage bolt will prevent mushrooming where you are hitting with your hammer.

This is as simple as it gets.
Dave Kanger

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Offline kutter

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2011, 10:28:53 PM »
As T*O*F states,,use the HSS blanks as-is. Any of the store bought blanks of HHS, Cobalt, (carbide of course) or any number of proprietary steel names you might find. These are eccentially lathe tool blanks and not ment  for the machinist to have to worry about HT,,just shaping.

1/8" is a very common use size for engravers. I went to 3/32" and found them even better as they took less time to shape. The point after all is what counts and that shouldn't be very big. Haveing to hog off extra material just to get the shape is time consuming.

A grinding wheel will get you there quicker but it's very easy to 'burn' some of the alloys and leave them less than full strength. Just like grinding a spring, you don't want to see it change color while shaping it.
Some of these alloys can take heat,,some cannot.

A better way is a belt grinder with a very course grit belt.
It will run cooler while cutting,,cut much faster than the ginding wheel and you can see what you're doing alot better than with a wheel IMHO.
I use a 100grit belt for shaping bits and keep a can of water handy too for the quick occasional dip.
If you handle it right you can actually let the belt cut a bit , then back off of it just enough to stop cutting but the course techture of the belt whips enough air accross the surface to cool the bit in a couple of moments,,and back to another few cuts again.

Then finish the flats and angles on a diamond plate in a fixture if you have one. Use your eye and hand co-ordination if not. I got away with doing it the latter way for 30 years till I finally broke down and bought a hone. Great investment for someone that does alot of work. Saves alot of time.

Carbide bits I use a dedicated wheel on a grinder just for carbide to shape them and then finish up on a diamond plate.

All that said,,the bits can be rough shaped on nothing but oil or water stones by hand and then the finished angles, heel, face etc put on with the same technique using finer stones by hand. People have done it that way for centurys.
I knew two engravers when I started that actually used a foot operated axe grinder/sharpener that was commonly found in farmyards years ago for the rough shaping. Did an excellent fairly quick job of it. No chance of over heating the tool bit. Easy on the arms too.

I used wooden handles on my gravers when I first started cutting. With a hardwood, they never split or mushroomed over. Gravers stayed in place fine. I was using round Stellite rod for gravers then. 1/8" dia leaving the end that went into the handle blunt with only a trace of a chamfer to allow it to be hammered into place in a predrilled hole.

The Stellite worked great as did the wooden handles. I did change to steel handles (1/2" sq? x 10"lg) with the set screw attachment for the graver a bit later.
I liked them even better. Easier on the hands and I liked the extra weight.
I continued to use those till I couldn't use a hammer & chisel anymore.

Try and retry different styles. You'll soon find what suits you best. Fatique and cramped hand muscles will be your best source of direction as much as quality of cut after some long sessions at the bench.

The few handles that you reject for engraving tools will never go wasted as they will become handles for all sorts of other hand tools that will cover your engraving and builders bench.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 10:41:16 PM by kutter »

DFHicks

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2011, 03:23:56 AM »
Thanks TOF & Kutter for the good information.  I have the Lindsay Universal templates and diamond hones in hand now & look forward to using them.  I had not thought of the extra weight of a metal handle being useful.
One question I forgot in my post _ there was a reference to an engraving tape by Kieth Casteel.  I can't find a source for this.  Does anyone know where this can be purchased?  I appreciate all the helpful info.  and I'll try to remember the advice in some of the first replies _ "Remember to enjoy it".

Online Joe Stein

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2011, 04:10:10 AM »
I got a copy of Keith Casteel's video (now on DVD) from him at Dixon's.  I consider it to be very well done.  I'm just learning: I couldn't cut a straight line until he showed me how at Dixon's.  Mr. Casteel is very friendly to deal with.
Anyway, I found him listed on the CLA website:
http://longrifle.com/artisans/artisan.asp?ID=240&membersonly=

-Joe

Offline John Archer

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2011, 07:28:29 AM »
You can reach Keith at:

hawkeyecasteel@citlink.net



Best,
John

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Offline Rolf

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2011, 11:28:53 AM »
Where can I buy  Keith Casteel's engraving dvd. How many minutes is it and what does he cover?

Best regards

Rolf

Tony Clark

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2011, 03:53:36 PM »

This is as simple as it gets.




One of the gravers I use quite often is a momax bit simply set into a hole drilled in the end of a mild steel holder with some babbit poured in to hold it. I like the weight this provides. Jack Brooks made up a number of them like this and I got that one from him. To shape the bit do it on a wheel and just keep it cool.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 03:54:40 PM by Tony Clark »

Offline John Archer

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2011, 08:40:31 PM »
Where can I buy  Keith Casteel's engraving dvd. How many minutes is it and what does he cover?

Best regards

Rolf

You can purchase the DVDs directly from Keith at the email link I provided above. The 2 DVD set covers:
Disc 1.
Shop, tools, lighting, tool making, graveurs and chisels, tempering, design, layout and patterns, transfers, script engraving, practice plate, background chiseling and stippling.
Disc 2.
Engraving screwheads, curved surfaces, deer's head on buttplate and triggerguard, barrel band gold inlay, graveur and chisel design and Keith's showcase.

Best,
John.
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DFHicks

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2011, 06:32:09 AM »
I can't get the e-mail address for Keith Casteel to go through. Is there possibly a letter or a dot out of place as it's listed?

welafong1

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2011, 07:40:56 AM »
i tried it went though
Richard Westerfield

Offline mark esterly

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2011, 04:51:07 PM »
try keithcasteel.com
living in the hope of HIS coming.......

Offline fm tim

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2011, 07:24:50 PM »
An interesting part of his DVD's is the early section that shows you how to grind then heat treat a file into a graver.  Very straightforward and visible in the DVD.

Offline Kevin Houlihan

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2011, 07:37:54 PM »
Before I bother Keith, does anyone know how much the 2 DVD set costs?
Thanks,
Kevin

Offline John Archer

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2011, 07:53:26 PM »
$50 plus shipping. (last year's price)

John.
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Offline Kevin Houlihan

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2011, 08:09:53 PM »
John,
Thanks!
  Kevin

holzwurm

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2011, 08:38:08 PM »
I know you remarked you did not have a lathe but maybe one of your neighbors has one. You can also draw up a scaled rendition and approach the Machine Trades teacher/instructor at the local High School. They are always looking for challenging ideas for advanced students, and the student can pick up a few bucks for his time and effort. On a project like this the teacher would have a chance to reinforce several  skills.

I turned this one out of a piece of 1/2" octagonal brass and drill/filed the tip to accept a GRS graver holder which I have about a dozen of.  I soldered in another piece of steel to prevent mushrooming and knurled the body for a good grip. The octagonal end prevents the handle from rolling off the table when I set it down.






You don't have to be this anal about a handle - a piece of octagonal steel and a couple of screws will work just as well. I wouldn't used square or round stock though. I don't like the feel of square and round just keep falling off the table.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 04:16:39 AM by holzwurm »

DFHicks

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2011, 10:42:01 PM »
Thanks again for the continued replies and good info.  Holswurm the pictures are great & I have a ruined/relic 1890 model oct. .22 barrel.  I'm going to dig it out & see if it has some possibilities based on your design.  Casteel's DVD set sounds like it has information well worth $50-$60.  _Regards

DFHicks

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Re: More Graver Questions
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2011, 07:21:09 PM »
My mistake: the e-mail address for Keith Casteel does work.  Apparently I am not even semi-computer literate. If it helps anyone you place the cursor on the address & right click; a box will come up "Copy E-mail Address" & left click on this.  Then you can go to your e-mail, open a new message and then go to "Edit" on the tool bar and click on "Paste".  Fortunately I have programmer in my family. _ Cheers