frizzen problems with bess

[sonny]

after 500 shots i can not longer count on the frizzen to ignite the pan. I suspect the frizzen is soft an i wore through the hardened shell on the frizzen.I don't want to mess with this, over an over, so i need to have a hardened resole over the frizzen face with rivetts,not soldered............can anybody direct me to a source to have this done?.thanks.............sonny

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Sonny,
  MUZZLELOADER magazine page  53
March /April2011


   Rich

[sonny]

sorry i don't have that copy!.....whats it say whats it say.......sonny

[Long John]

I don't know why you refuse to consider a soldered-on face - they work great. 

I faced the frizzens on two Bess locks for a re-enactor friend.  I used 1095 spring stock bought at Dixon's.  I shaped the annealed stock to fit the frizzen with a narrowed down extension at the top of the frizzen to allow me to hold it while hardening.  Once the sole was shaped and bent to fit I hardened it with a MAPP gas torch.  I polished the back side to remove scale and tinned the frizzen face with tin/silver solder.  I then applied flux to the two parts, clamped them together and sweated the sole onto the frizzen.   Then I broke-off the extension and ground the tip of the frizzen smooth.  The whole job took about 1 hour per gun.

Both guns have been shooting regularly for 5 or so years now without a hitch. 

Best Regards,

JMC

[Dphariss]

after 500 shots i can not longer count on the frizzen to ignite the pan. I suspect the frizzen is soft an i wore through the hardened shell on the frizzen.I don't want to mess with this, over an over, so i need to have a hardened resole over the frizzen face with rivetts,not soldered............can anybody direct me to a source to have this done?.thanks.............sonny

Why would you want rivets?
The rivets will be soft and may cause broken flints. I would not do it.
Soft solder will work very well for this so long as the person doing the work does not use too much heat and/or too high a flow temp solder.
Or you could just fit a new frizzen.
Dan

[Dphariss]

Its also possible to braze a 1095 face on then harden and temper since brass melts at a higher temp than the critical temp of 1095.

Dan

[Habu]

BTDT with the frizzen problems on the Bess.  Best solution is to first buy and fit another frizzen THEN get the current frizzen re-soled.  If this isn't something you can do yourself, you'll lose a lot of time waiting for someone else to get to the job. 

Heck, buy a spare lock.  Then you're set for almost anything, and will have the luxury of shooting while you wait for repairs.

Jim

[yip]

heck i used casenit, mind works fine now. all it is caseharding the frizzen.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

  It's a tutorial on resoling the frizzen


   Rich

[LRB]

  Kasenit is not permanent. It only goes a couple or so thousandths deep. Unless you can cook it for a few hours.

[Jim Kibler]

There have been several good suggestions in my view.  I would also suggest giving the frizzen a proper deep carburizing treatment.  Temperatures in the range of 1600-1650 and a hold time of maybe 3 hours or maybe a little more.  This would be my first choice since when done properely it will work very well and is less labor intensive than other options.

[Daryl]

I'd deep harden it as Jim noted - even to casing it 4 or 5 times with a good soak time each time should drive the case in enough for another couple thousand shots or more. Simple and easy to do.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

I'll send you my copy if interested,  PM your address and I'll send it to you


   Rich

[varsity07840]

I urge you to contact this gentleman.

Hugh Toenjes

hjt65@hotmail.com

He did a half sole job for me on an original 1816 lock with repro frizzen that was hopeless.

Duane

[sonny]

thanks for the advice, everyone!...........I am looking into some of the replys for frizzen correction..thanks again!.sonny

[verbrugen]

I have a couple of questions;  what Bess lock is this?  Pedersoli, TRS, recent India make, etc.  I have used a pedersoli Bess for 12-15 years and have two other extra locks I swap in and out.  These locks have had thousands of shots fired and I have only had to harden one frizzen.  When I did this the first time I used a small rivet forge and actually over-hardened and eventually with use broke the base of the frizzen.  I then picked up another frizzen and used Kasenit with great success.  I have since done a couple of friends Bess frizzen and had no problems.  I have built a couple of TRS muskets, 1740 Potzdam, etc.  and cast springs and frizzens can be a challenge to get right if you don't know what you are doing.

JAS

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

This is the lock from Sonny's musket.  It is a TRS parts set that I assembled about fifteen years ago.  Instructions about the hardening and tempering of this frizzen from TRS were followed, but failed to produce a through-hardened frizzen, so I case hardened it, and it served me very well for all these years.  About a year before Sonny bought the gun, I started to get weak ignition, so I re-cased and tempered the frizzen, and once again, got great performance.  One difference between my and Sonny's use, is that I did not shoot it nearly as much as he does.  So I suspect that he has carved through the case, and re-casing it will bring it back again.  I have been corresponding with him via email, but would like to pass this on to everyone so that all may benefit.

[Jim Kibler]

How was this case hardened Taylor?  With good deep pack carburizing treatment, I don't think wearing through would be a common issue.  When pack carburizng a frizzen I probably get a case in the range of .030-.040".  I'm not being critical of those using kasenite or similar products, but I think it's important to make the distinction.  These two treatments are much different.  If periodic re-hardening is not objectionable one may get away with Kasenite.  I guess my point is that a case hardened frizzen is not a bad thing.  In my view, done well it is the best way to harden a frizzen.  In my experience performance has seemed to be better than frizzens hardened by any other method.  I feel safe in saying that most completly costom built locks built in recent times have had frizzens carburized.  Remember these are the best of the best.  The process is straightforward and producess very good results.

[verbrugen]

I had the same issue with a TRS 1740 Potzdam lock that I built maybe 8 years ago.  Heat treated/hardened as reccomended by TRS, done with a muffle oven/furnace with controlled temp.  Worked great for a number of years then would not produce a spark, tried reheating & quenching, tried carburizng, tried Kasenit, bottom line could not get a good spark.  Ordered a new frizzen casting from TRS (waited 8 months) & had father ( who is a retired Tool & Die Maker) heat quench harden it as instructed by TRS and it provides a good spark once again.

JAS

[Daryl]

Jim - with the deep pack hardening of the frizzen, does the temper have to be drawn to straw/brn?

[Jim Kibler]

I've tempered them at around 350 F.  I'm thinking that would maybe a straw color.  I draw the foot and pan cover up to the bend to around a blue color.  I know some who pack carburize don't temper the face and report good results.