Author Topic: Coppering  (Read 5339 times)

Offline T*O*F

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Coppering
« on: November 08, 2008, 05:16:29 AM »
In the last several months I have run across the term "coppering" in books on machining, engraving, and gunsmithing.  In all references it referred to using a solution of nitric acid and copper sulphate to deposit a thin layer of copper on polished steel.  By and large, it was a method of pattern transfer before some of the modern solutions came about.  Sometimes, Dangler's solution will do the same thing when trying to brown a gun.

It occurred to me that coppering could facilitate soldering.  Solder sticks to copper more easily than steel and flows more readily on it.  This might be especially invaluable when soldering double guns together or fastening an under-rib to a barrel.  I believe both surfaces could be tinned more easily if they were coppered first and would flow better when joining.  Small areas like sights or underlugs could be done by masking a small area on the barrel and coppering it.  This could feasibly limit the spreading and subsequent cleanup of extraneous solder.  I also believe there would be less flux burnout with the copper.

I haven't tried it yet, but perhaps one of you who are at that stage might give it a try and report back on results.

Dave Kanger

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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Coppering
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2008, 06:02:40 AM »
Interesting, Dave.

would the copper plating bond better to the steel than the solder? If so, you got something there. If the copper is not well bonded, then it's worse.

Does the thin copper flash help protect the steel from rusting? This would be an advantage for steel printing plates, as the steel plate is far more durable than copper, yet a little rust will ruin a plate. You can't polish it off without loss of the image.
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Offline LynnC

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Re: Coppering
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2008, 06:03:42 AM »
I've heard that the faux damascus on Deringer pistols was copper streaking of some sort.  I would be interested in what the finish is and how it is applied.
Lynn
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Offline Dave B

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Re: Coppering
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2008, 05:42:19 PM »
This is very interesting. I have had the same experience with the LMF browning solution. If you scrub the surface too much when applying the solution you get a copper plating that resists the browning. You must be careful to only make a light pass with the swab. I have an under rib to solder on a smooth bore I will have to see how this works on it.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Coppering
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2008, 07:59:48 PM »
I looked up the formula and instructions.  The acid is sulfuric, not nitric as I said before.

120cc distilled water
Add all the copper sulfate it will dissolve
1cc sulfuric acid
(you can get sulfuric acid anywhere that they fill dry charged batteries, or it comes in a gallon container at auto parts stores.  Copper sulphate is used to kill pond weeds and may be available from swimming pool stores or elsewhere)

Test by applying to a piece of steel, and if necessary add a few more drops of acid.  The surface to be coppered should be polished and free from grease or oil.  Apply the solution with a clean piece of cloth, and if a bright copper coating is not immediately obtained, apply the second coat, and so on.  When the desired color is obtained, oil the surface and then wipe to kill the action of the acid.  Using other substances that might react with copper is unwise.

Prior to soldering, again degrease the area to remove the oil you used to kill the acid.

Quote
would the copper plating bond better to the steel than the solder? If so, you got something there. If the copper is not well bonded, then it's worse.
The copper is a chemical bond, which should be stronger than a mechanical bond.  Copper plating is used as a step in the chrome plating process of car parts.

Since copper also conducts heat faster than steel, you should be able to solder better without having to overheat the steel, which is a common problem when trying to solder those things together.

Quote
Does the thin copper flash help protect the steel from rusting?

It should, but copper also oxidizes so I don't know its value for protecting printing plates.  The answer to that is to look at a house with copper flashing on it to determine its suitability.  You'd probably have to lacquer it or something to keep the air from it.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 08:03:44 PM by TOF »
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
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Offline Metalshaper

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Re: Coppering
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2008, 08:08:32 PM »
Fox,

 That is another one of the old "Shop Tricks" that I have come across.  ;D

I'm not a expert at joinery, but from my few attempts, it does make the silver soldering process a bit easier?  Since silver solders are usually alloyed with various percentages of copper, this plating ( as it was explained ) actually becomes a part of the solder joint? in use, I just  used a cotton swab to draw the plating into the area where I wanted it go.   and then used pencil graphite,  to block out the surrounding areas.

Like I said, not an expert, just  experimenting with techniques I
have learned about.

Respect Always
Metalshaper

Offline davec2

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Re: Coppering
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2008, 03:47:48 AM »
Coppering, by non electrical means, forms a very poor bond with iron or steel.  The copper is deposited on the iron / steel due to the natural electro-potential difference between iron and copper.  However, the bond forms quickly and is very poorly adherent.  If the process is used to facilitate soft soldering, the result will not be as strong a bond as would result from properly cleaning and fluxing the steel and soft soldering directly to it.  In the case of silver soldering, the copper does not improve the process or the bond.  At the much higher temperature of silver soldering, the copper mearly alloys with the solder and results in a solder with a higher copper content.  The bond is effected in the usual manner between the two items to be joined - that is by the solder flowing onto the surface of both parts.  The copper plating bond is consumed in the process and no longer exists as a plated bond.

To prove how poor the bond is, clean and plate a nail with the copper sulfate solution and then try to scrape it off.  It will peal off in sheets.  Commercially, copper is plated from either acidic or alkaline baths.  The acidic ones lay down a lot of copper fast, the alkaline ones are used to deposit copper of finer structure that adheres much more firmly to certain substrates, most usually iron or zinc based alloys.  The acidic baths, if used to plate iron or steel directly, result in a plating that will flake off and fall to the bottom of the tank.  To copper plate steel properly, an alkaline (i.e. cyanide) solution is used first, but requires the application of electrical current.  After the initial layer is put down, the part may be plated further in either an alkaline or and acidic bath.

In Etruscan filigree gold work, copper salts were used with a hide glue to hold the extremely fine parts together.  As the article was heated, the copper salt was converted to a copper oxide but the oxygen in the oxide was combined with carbon in the charring glue and went off as carbon dioxide.  The residual copper alloyed with the surface of the gold to form a lower fusing alloy that effectively soldered the whole piece together without flooding the fine surface detail of the wires, grains, beads etc., into an unsightly mass. 

Bottom line here, yes copper can be helpful in forming a high temperature brazed or silver soldered bond, but a quick dip in an acidic copper plating solution on steel will not improve the ease or strength of a soft soldered joint.

By the way, the Romans used the copper sulfate technique to plate iron ship fittings - sort of an ancient version of galvanizing.  It did keep the iron from rusting quite as quickly as bare iron did.  However, the coper was thin, did not adhere very well, and went away in fairly short order.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 03:54:37 AM by davec2 »
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