Underlug Staples

[David Burger]

Howdy all,

I'm fixin' to start my first build. It is a TOTW kit. Jacob Dickert flintlock in .45 cal. with a 42" X 13/16" Colerain barrel. Two questions. #1 Are underlug staples reliable? #2 Would silver soldering make them more reliable? Thanx in advance.

David

[Glenn]

That's a good question that I've always wondered about myself.

[A.Merrill]

     I have herd good things and bad things about them. With this being your first build you should dovetail in the lugs, that way you can get in some pratice before you dovetail in the sights.    Good Luck    AL

[Lucky R A]

       There is more danger to screw up a barrel with staples than any other method.  I would not use them especially on a very light barrel like you have chosen.  On original rifles, I have seen many staples missing and very few dovetailed underlugs missing---take a lesson from history.  Dovetails do not need to be deep, 1/16" is plenty.  Just upset the edges of the dovetail and then set them down on the underlug when you slide it into place.
        A 13/16 barrel seems like a strange choice for an early builder like Dickert.  Several barrel makers make barrels w/ the correct profile for a Dickert rifle.  You will be beating your head against the wall trying to get correct architecture with that slim little tube.

[Don Getz]

Ol' Lucky is right on with this one.    I have used a lot of staples on barrels but would shy away from them on a 13/16"
barrel.   Since you have no experience with them, it would be real easy to screw up a good barrel.   I would go ahead
with your choice of a "Dickert" style gun, they do have good architecture, but you will have to scale it down somewhat.
My favorite shooting gun was built with a 13/16" 40 cal. barrel, built "somewhat" like a southern mountain gun, kind of
strange, but it shoots well.   Have fun................Don

[coutios]

David, Nothing to add except I agree with using dovetails... Just want to add stay away from silver (hard) solder on barrels. Way more heat..  Stay with the soft solders....

Regards
Dave

[Dphariss]

Howdy all,

I'm fixin' to start my first build. It is a TOTW kit. Jacob Dickert flintlock in .45 cal. with a 42" X 13/16" Colerain barrel. Two questions. #1 Are underlug staples reliable? #2 Would silver soldering make them more reliable? Thanx in advance.

David

For a barrel this thin use shallow dovetails.
Very easy to dimple the bore with staples even with a thicker wall than this.
DO NOT high temp solder no need and its a bad idea and could warp things..

Dan

[Jim Kibler]

A dovetail .030-.040" is plenty deep in my experience.  When upsetting the edges with a chisel, I have even gone shallower.

[David Rase]

Your dovetails don't need to be any deeper than .030".  All they are doing is supporting that very THIN piece of wood called a forestock.
Dave.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

David,

I am working on my first build also.  I thought about using staples because I thought it would be easier.  That is what the folks trying to sell them say anyway.  I followed much of the same advice you have been given here and it was not nearly as hard as I thought it would be to dovetail those underlugs. 

Coryjoe

[FRJ]

I would also like an answer to Daves question. My barrel is a Douglas 1" 50cal and I'm going to use staples per the blueprint. I've purchased them from TOW and also the install and marking tool whats wrong with them and what should I look out for? Thank You, Frank

[rich pierce]

It's almost impossible to ruin a barrel by cutting a dovetail but barrels have been ruined by drilling for staples.  A stop on the drill press slips, a miscalculation, and you're in or close to the bore.  If you practice making dovetails for your underlugs, your sight dovetailes will be pretty clean.

[Rootsy]

It takes longer to make the file than it does to cut the first dovetail.  Mark it out and take your time, especially when sizing it. Clean up the underlug first and measure it so you know your layout.  Test fit it and don't open the dovetail up too fast.  It's tedious but not a race.  

If you do get them just a tad loose you can stake the corners with a center punch to hold it in place.  

A new 3 corner file will have radius corners.  Grind it enough so that it has sharp corners. 

[Bill-52]

David & Frank,

I recently finished my first rifle and had the same question when I started (and the same impression that staples might be easier).  I was given the same good advice and am glad I used lugs & dovetails.

The first cut to the barrel with a hacksaw was frightening but it got easier.  One other thought, when you get close to the finishing the dovetail, check the fit frequently.  Almost file one stroke, check the fit, another file stroke, check....  You'll find the lugs get to final tight fit very quickly.

Good luck,
Bill

[kutter]

If you don't want to cut a dovetail in the bbl, you could just soft solder the lug itself to the bbl.
With a long & perfect mating surface, a well done soft soldered joint will withstand alot of tension.
There are some excellent hi strength soft solders available now too.

I would guess the anchor strength would be at least as good if not better than the mechanical bond of a staple job.


Make the base thickness as trim as possible to keep the lug height down, but thick enough to give it strength.

European sporting rifles and shotguns have used front sling swivel bases that are soft soldered to the barrel or under ribs for years. Unless abused or a poor job, those single strain point fixtures take a lot more torque and pull than a L/R under lug will ever take w/a 1/16" dia pin thru it & the wood.

Under bbl forend wedge loops on European bolt action and single shot sporters are often nothing more than soft soldered into place also.

I dovetailed and soldered the lugs into place on the couple I've built. Overkill perhaps.
Soldering is easy with what we have available now. Not so easy when all you had was a forge, crude flux and scraps of tin.
Dovetail(s) was the way to go then I'd guess.

[FRJ]

Thanks to all of you for your responses. I  thought the staples were going to be easy but I never pass on experience or good advice. I looked at Brownell's file for dovetails, boy are they proud of that!!!!!! anyone got a cheaper way to do it? Frank

[Bill-52]

Frank,

I use a small (6") triangular file in which I removed the filing from one side with a grinder, thereby creating a safe side.  When installed, I lightly punch the corners of the dovetail to further secure the lug.  Works fine for me.

Bill

[Dphariss]

Thanks to all of you for your responses. I  thought the staples were going to be easy but I never pass on experience or good advice. I looked at Brownell's file for dovetails, boy are they proud of that!!!!!! anyone got a cheaper way to do it? Frank

Grind on flat smooth on a 3 square file, 6" slim taper I like best.
Grind it evenly, keep the flat you are grinding flat and true to maintain the angles till its sharp at the edges. Round edges will not work properly.
I have never bought store bought dovetail file.

Dan

[bgf]

Lugs and shallow dovetails -- you can always solder the lugs in if needed, or just soldered lugs on a thin barrel as said.  The thought of drilling into the bore convinced me not to try staples, as I don't absolutely trust the stop on my "economical" drill press!

[Glenn]

I for one, appreciate all the input and advice everyone has contributed on this topic.  My first gun will more than likely be a 13/16 barrel and I was starting to get a little concerned about the best way to go about this.  I'll keep all this in mind as I go along.   

[coutios]

An additional benefit of an underlug vs staple is a better target for the first time builder. Sometimes those small diameter drills have a mind of their own....

Just a passing thought..
Dave

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Sometimes?    

[David Burger]

Thanks to everyone for your advice. I will be using dovetailed lugs. I really don't want to drill a hole into the bore.
David

[FRJ]

I was thinking of using a piece of steel tubing as a drill stop and I think it would work quite well but as said before I'm on this site to gain some of the valuable knowledge  you guys have bought with blood, sweat , and tears before me. I'll be taking your hard earned advice on the staples and seeking more of that same advice as the project progresses. Thanks Again, Frank

[Glenn]

I think I'll go with the dovetails also in the 13/16 barrel.  I wont go too deep and if I dont feel right about how it might hold with a shallow dovetail I'll just soft-solder the piece anyway and call it all even.