Types of brass for casting

[smylee grouch]

Reading Dons post about hard brass got me thinking of a project that I am thinking of doing, melting center fire rifle brass and trying to cast some brass sheets.  I have no past experience doing anything like this but have a forge and lots of brass casings. Will this type of brass work ok for this? If so what would be a good material to pour the molten brass onto so it wont adhere to the surface? Saftey concerns? Any other advise or tips? Maybe this wont work for my purposes but I would like any advise you can give.  Thanks in advance.   Smylee

[flintriflesmith]

Cartridge brass is usually the perfect 70-30 allow for casting mounts. Be sure and remove the primers because a dud primer that looks fired can pop in the brass and cause a splatter. Also avoid the nickle plated stuff.

Casting sheet is much more complicated. Brass releases gases as it cools/hardens and can't be against a impervious surface. Also any droplets of moisture on a solid would also cause a steam explosion. Sand is used for molds because it lets enough gas escape. 

Period sheet brass that was mass produced was made by casting a wedge shaped ingot and rolling it out to a sheet under extreme pressure.

For the movie The Gunsmith of Williamsburg, Wallace Gusler cast some sheet about 1/8 inch thick and pounded it out on an anvil with a forging tool called a flatter. There were problems with the brass cracking even though it was repeatedly annealed.

Gary

[smylee grouch]

Thanks Gary, good stuff to know. If I were to make a sheet mold out of sand, say the shap of a cookie sheet, would it matter if the sand was still damp from forming? I also wonder about when I pour the molten brass into the mold, how much will the sand displace as the molten brass is being poured? I assume that I would have to start pouring close to the sand suface and maybe the sand wouldnt erode out during the actual pour. How thick should the sand be? I thought about making the mold inside of a wooden frame to hold the sand in place better.   Any thoughts or tips?   Thanks for replying.  Smylee

[Rasch Chronicles]

Smylee,

Go here: Backyard Metal Casters

Casting is dangerous business for the under informed.

Casting sand and isn't just sand, and if it is moist, expect to get seriously hurt. No equivocation. We are talking about hot metal that will burn through a boot, and the foot within...

Best Regards,
Albert A Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles™
I Would Rather Hunt, Than be Hunted!
ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

[verbrugen]

I have tried a couple of yellow brass sand casting projects. As already noted be very careful as gaining experience and knowledge at casting brass can come with more than a price in dollars.   That said here are a couple of good links that will get you thinking about making some cool stuff for casting.

 http://backyardmetalcasting.com/
http://artfulbodgermetalcasting.com/index.html
http://www.themetalcasting.com/hobby-foundry.html


JAS

[caliber45]

Smylee -- I have very limited sand-casting experience (couple of silver projects), but know that special super-fine sand is needed, and it is moistened with glycerine, NOT WATER! If you look under "sand casting" on the 'net, I'm sure you'll find materials and instruction. Expect the surface to need lotsa filing. I was told that cartridge brass is IDEAL for casting rifle furniture. Also ditto the advice of others: remove primers first; no nickel plated! I'm gonna try triggerguards and buttplates myself one of these times! Good luck! -- paulallen, tucson az

[camerl2009]

i smelt down .22lr brass brass that is at the end of its life

plz dont smelt down reloadable brass (if you find any .303 brit id take it off your hands   its getting hard to find)

[David Rase]

Here is a link to where I have purchased yellow brass ingots and other casting supplies.  http://budgetcastingsupply.com/   They are a great outfit to deal with and specialize in the little guy.
Dave

[JCKelly]

that looks like a great site    look it over & they'll teach you something about brass casting     it is not just melting old 70%Cu 30%Zn cartridges & pouring the metal into some kind of mould   some of the zinc will burn off in a white cloud    I dunno what you do about this, guess the couple of miniature trigger guards I cast long time ago are probably a little low in zinc    brass castings tend to be porous    these budgetcasting guys sell some stuff to deoxidize (get rid of the gas that makes the holes in a casting) the molten metal    design of casting, that is the sprues & gates are important    if you don't know why sprues & gates matter you are quite a normal guy, but it is stuff you must learn to make decent castings     the cast metal shrinks as it freezes, so your pattern must be just a little larger than you want the finished part to be     I don't know shrink allowances for different metals off-hand  but it must be readily available information   I have some patternmakers rulers with the shrink allowance built in, me I'm not sure which ruler is for iron, which for aluminum, brass, &c      this kinda stuff has been known for many, many, many years   Great idea to have protective clothing & face shield Oh do get a decent face shield   molten brass does not go well with flesh

[Dphariss]

Reading Dons post about hard brass got me thinking of a project that I am thinking of doing, melting center fire rifle brass and trying to cast some brass sheets.  I have no past experience doing anything like this but have a forge and lots of brass casings. Will this type of brass work ok for this? If so what would be a good material to pour the molten brass onto so it wont adhere to the surface? Saftey concerns? Any other advise or tips? Maybe this wont work for my purposes but I would like any advise you can give.  Thanks in advance.   Smylee

The brass cases might be worth more than the sheet you make. Depending on the caliber. It takes a good pile of cartridge cases to make a pound of brass.
Cartridge brass is C260 I think.
Should work but I don't know its exact composition.

Dan

PS
As Gary said in the previous post cartridge brass is 70-30 nominal. I got curious an looked it up to refresh my brain then read Gary's post above

[camerl2009]

Reading Dons post about hard brass got me thinking of a project that I am thinking of doing, melting center fire rifle brass and trying to cast some brass sheets.  I have no past experience doing anything like this but have a forge and lots of brass casings. Will this type of brass work ok for this? If so what would be a good material to pour the molten brass onto so it wont adhere to the surface? Saftey concerns? Any other advise or tips? Maybe this wont work for my purposes but I would like any advise you can give.  Thanks in advance.   Smylee

The brass cases might be worth more than the sheet you make. Depending on the caliber. It takes a good pile of cartridge cases to make a pound of brass.
Cartridge brass is C260 I think.
Should work but I don't know its exact composition.

Dan

yea you can make some money off brass cases i buy all the .303 brit i can to feed my enfield. i have a scap bucket that .22 rimfire go in and cases that are at the end of there life

i pick up everything if i dont use it i sell it for cheap to someone who will

[AndyThomas]

Cartridge brass is great for sheet brass. I've cast some as thin as 1/16" thick. It comes out a little rough, but it's usable. Makes a nice swaged nosepiece.

Casting sand, usually called "green sand", consists of three things: sand, clay, and water. If you cast enough, you'll get a "feel" for when you have enough clay and/or water. Both the clay and water get used up, and you will have to add more of one or both almost every time you cast.

Unless you want to make something you can't buy, it's a lot of trouble, and as the others said, dangerous too.

Andy

[flintriflesmith]

I don't know where some folks got the idea that brass can't be cast in damp sand. All the casting we did at the Colonial Williamsburg Gunshop was in damp sand. It is referred to as "green sand casting." We dug up local sand (which had a tiny bit on natural clay), screened it to remove organic matter and gravel, and added just enough watter to make the sand bond and hold it's shape. Most 18th-century casting of iron and brass was done in damp sand. The sand is course enough to let some of the steam escape directly through it and the rest goes out through holes punched through the top half of the mold (the cope).

What was called "French sand casting" was used for getting greater detail when casting silver and gold. That technique called for setting the mold with very fine grained damp sand, then baking the mold to drive off the water. At the same time we were doing green sand casting at the gunshop the silversmiths at the Geddy Foundry were doing French sand casting. We were unable to document the use of the dry sand technique by any Colonial American gunsmiths.

The use of oil or glycerin to bind the sand is a newer technique but easier because the sand doesn't dry out between casting sessions.
Gary

[Rasch Chronicles]

FlintRifleSmith,

My error then. The only references I have read on greensand have used oil as a binder. I was under the impression that any dampness in the sand would result in splatter. When the kids and I melted copper, we were very careful not to drip anything on the ground because we were concerned it would pop. We even baked the plaster molds we made to make certain that there was no moisture in them. Perhaps the porosity of the sand due to its coarseness as you say, allows the steam to exit without causing an issue.

Thanks for the information!

Best regards,
Albert “The Afghan” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles
The Art of Smoking
ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

[David Rase]

Albert,
When I sand cast a triggerguard or buttplate I use petrobond.  Petrobond sand is an oil bonded, pre-mixed foundry sand made up of fine sharp silica sand, resin and oil.  It doesn't require close attention to moisture content. It is safer too because it doesn't generate potentially explosive amounts of steam.  Oil Bonded sand can also produce a finer surface finish than water bonded sand due to its smooth texture and lack of steam generation. It is easier for the novice to use.
Dave

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'll second the PetroBond - once I switched from green sand to that, there was no going back.  MUCH easier to use and much less particular about venting.

[Don Getz]

I own a real neat Frank and John House rifle.   According to Frank the hardware on it were cast from molten cartridge cases.   Don't know how they did it, but, it turned out great.   This gun, according to Frank, was the first gun he built when
he went into the gunbuilding business full time.  The gun has a 60 cal. barrel on it which I made, and the gun is for sale,
if anyone is interested............Don

[smylee grouch]

Thank you so much for the responses so far. And thank you for the saftey advise too as I knew there would be concerns along that line. Even with all the good advise I know that I still have alot to learn about this process and will be looking into it more befor I try any endevor of it. I know that the work involved along with the saftey risks point toward using ready made brass sheet but the money factor is not the reason that we gunsmiths always make our own parts, etc. Just the satisfaction of doing something and making something by yourself is alot of times reason enough to do it your self. The web sites mentioned look to be very helpfull as I look into this more and as I said the advise given will also be of great help too.  Thank you again for all the responses and look forward to any more advise or tips along this line.      Smylee

[AndyThomas]

Oh, yeah, PetroBond, I forgot about that. I'm stuck somewhere in the 18th century.

American Pioneer Video has a casting "how to" with Terry Leeper using PetroBond. It's a good casting video. My method is sort of half way between The Gunsmith of Williamsburg video and the Leeper video.

It sounds like you're where I was several years ago. Be careful, next you'll want to make your own wood screws.

Andy

[Captchee]

  flintriflesmith is correct  about the wet sand .
 wet doesn’t mean dripping though  because to much moisture can cause  distortions in the surface of the casting. It can also cause a large steam release  from the sand ,to happen as you do your pour .
  
 I hesitate to comment on this as some fool will do it wrong and get hurt.
 But the Japanese historically , would cast  Copper , Brass and irons   in strait water  .
 infact i posted a link to a video showing  the japanese  water casting process here on the forum a few months ago . this was done as part of the recreating of  a Japanese sword guard . 
 those that  took the time to watch it , saw  the molten  metal being poured derectly into a bucket of water  with a shet of silk as a mould
 
 As to casting plate brass . This is very difficult  especially in thinner thicknesses .
  Thus sheet brass was normally made by  rolling an ingot  out under pressure

[Rasch Chronicles]

But the Japanese historically , would cast Copper, Brass and irons in straight water  .
 in fact i posted a link to a video showing  the Japanese water casting process here on the forum a few months ago

That's just great Captchee, something even more dangerous for me to try my hand at...

My wife will kill me if I use her scarves...

Your friend,
Albert “The Afghan” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles™
ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!