what kind of rear sight notch is best?

[Roger Fisher]

Tom- my bi-focal lense gives me an absolutely sharp front sight and the rear is pretty good too. Trouble is, I can't distinguish what the targets' shape even is.  Sort of like looking at an oncomming vehicle on a Harley's side mirror - is it another Harley or a Mac Truck- can't tell.

I tried that idea yrs ago to have specs made to clear the sights and leave the target 'fuzzy'  bout drives you haywire, so now the rear sight is the fuzzy one and frt sight clear (kinda) and target clear (kinda)

[Scott Bumpus]

CLREAR SIGHTS AND TARGET??  GET REAL!!   You just shoot into the middle of the blur!

[crispy]

on Sunday I was shooting with my progressive/unlined bifocals on,,, what a mistake that was, ther were blurs and and all sorts of odd views esp when I was looking thru lense close to the corner... next time out ,,back to single vision distance glasses even if I cant see the rear sight

[crispy]

on my rifle(lyman)  I have a #14 copper wire soldered to a V groove I cut in the very thick stock sight,, it looks like a bead from the rear, I use a large square notch for the rear,, works great for me ,, even though the notch is a blur ,, I can center the front blade easily as the notch id 1/8 inch wide

[Candle Snuffer]

Just thought I'd throw my two cents worth in.

I use to like the U notch, then went to the square notch (at the time for my eyesight it was better), now it seems the V notch works best for me on my offhand rifles.  I still use the square notch on my x-stick rifles where the peep set up is not allowed.

Use what you can see best through.  Time and testing will tell the tale.

[Harnic]

I was tinkering in the shop last night & got thinking about this thread...  Suddenly it came to me!   I can alter my "closed" buckhorn sight very easily so that I can pop the ring out when not actually aiming!  That way no one will be the wiser!  A wire clip staked in a groove cut all around the notch with a corresponding groove in the insert will work perfect!  Thanks for the inspiration guys!

[Daryl]

Marty pretty much hit the nail on it's head. Use what looks best to you.  Of course, unless you try some different systems, you won't know what's best for you.  This one was the best for me back in '86 when we built her, and lo and behold, it still is although I must wear glasses nowadays.
  I tried progressives as Crispy tried last Sunday, and found bi-focals work best for me, the entrie upper and sides of the lense being in sharp focus for distance. This starts to show with the front sight which is fairly sharp, although the rear's haziness is still just fine with the wide, or open V. The tighter the V or U notch, the more fuzziness appears and halo's the front sight into fuzziness as well. Gone are the days when I could see both as well as the target in sharp focus - apparently, this was due to the lense's capability of rapid re-focus - something that is missing now.
 This is the one I see today - and in 1986 when I had better than 20/20 vision. Then, as now, it is capable of 1 1/2 MOA and a bit better.

 Here's a front sight.

[Teach]

so the v notch rear is not the much prefered way to go.A square notch slightly wider like getz said is more exact for all around.How the heck can i make a perfectly square notch in rear sight??? seem's like it never is perfectly square (sides tipped/or bottom slanted).A v notch would be easy with a three sided file,but is there a file that would give me a perfectly square notch?........sonny

I have cut a notch using a coping saw, narrowest blade that I could find.Problem is , is it the right width for the front blade ? that's why I now just order set of California matched sights, my son (young eyes) prefers the narrow blade) my older eyes prefer the thicker blade. Just as Don said, your eye will automatically centre the front blade.
My mentor, who used to give me a hard time re. trying different sights ? guess what he got on his rifle now ? Thegunworks sells a set for $30.

Cheers Teach.

[sonny]

crispy!..I am an optician by trade ,an that makes it worse as i have tried to beat the system with superior sights, but as we age it becomes impossable to beat the vision problems with our older eyes,and i know it!!!!The very best glasses for shooting are single vision lenses with the optical center off set for head position when aiming for maximum clarity at a given range.Lenses have optical centers which is the very best spot for maximum clarity an the least distortion.Progressive lenses are worst for shooting(some guys swear by them but they  sure don't shoot in the olympics with them on-believe it).I believe that smoothbore guns were popular because way back when,   #1 they were cheaper to buy...#2 with no back sight older men could still get game an indians with them.I believe that there is no ultimate set of sights,or notchs....oh yes!....smaller round glasses are better for clarity an precision in shooting/the light is concentrated into a smaller beam going into your eye.large glasses confuse the eye with large amounts of light/glare an corrupt the precision .God i wish i could find a perfect notch sight for hunting/woodswalk....sonny

[Harnic]

I wish my optician was a shooter Sonny!  I could use something other than an un-interested blank stare when I ask what lenses would work best for shooting!

[Candle Snuffer]

Harry, maybe this was covered but I'll ask any way.  Have you or anyone else here ever tried the "drill hole in the lens" technique?  I understand some folks have had good success with this method.  Wondered if you had an old pair of specs that this
could be tried out on?  I know some folks just use electrical tape with a small hole in it (maybe 1/16th inch) and they claim this works really well for clearing up their sight picture.  Of course they have to get it located on their specs just right.

[don getz]

I can answer this question "what type of sight is best" by answering, whatever you can see well.  As you can see, this
varies so much from individual to individual...everyone's eyes are different.  I like Daryl's english express sights, although
I have never put one on a rifle.  I have looked at them and they are quick, and I can see them rather well.....I don't
think they relate to shooting target, or super accuracy, with that type.  You normally found this type of sight on those
big double rifles the english used for close range stuff...something you could pick up real quick, and at point blank range.
How many have picked up old kentuckies and looked at the sights....they are small and low to the barrel, the strange
thing is, you can see them.  Lately, that is what I have been putting on my famous barn guns, and they do look good on
a gun, and amazingly, you can see them.  To each his own.............Don

[R. Hare]

I've always liked and shot with Daryl's wide open "V" where possible.

Some think it's purely short range, but Greener reckoned it was; "One of the best for fine shooting"
It all depends on what feels right to you.

It is interesting to note, that quite a few "Volunteer"   P '53 enfields,  Snider Enfields,  and Martini Henry's turn up, with the sight slider reversed  (inverted)  with the flat side of the sight uppermost, and just the fine centre-line to guide the placement of the front sight.
With the sight raised to use the slider, the range has to be 400 yds or better, so it appears that some target shooters preffered the completely flat rear sight for this work.
Re. fuzzy sights,
For me, a piece of thin card with a small hole punched in it works.  I stuff the card up under my hat and view sights through the hole and the sights appear as plain as they were 25 years ago!

No good for competition, and a pain when hunting, but it helps eliminate some variables when getting a gun to shot well!  I think it just eliminates the peripheral rays entering the eye.....and it's cheap!
I had to resort to this before I had catteract surgery.......could see 3 of everything otherwise!!

Richard.

[sonny]

Candle Snuffer.........small holes elongate focal lenght////peep sights work on this principal.Our eyes are older,an not as sharp as younger shooters but we can hold steadier then them......he he...sonny

[Daryl]

Sonny - you've not seen Mark Hunter shoot.  Young eyes, steady hold - even the short 1/2 stock isn't a detriment for him. He even shoots his Dad's flinter about as well as that cap gun.

 Used to shoot competition with a fellow like that, when I had eyes. Guys adjusted his handgun sights when he wasn't looking & he still nailed the coarse of fire with a pefect score.  When challenged on this he exclaimed - "Who uses the sights?"

[northmn]

I just learned a lesson on rear sights for hunting.  I could go to my range and shoot quite well with my open sights and then go out an miss deer with them, even shooting from rests built on the stands (I build in rest bars).  Opened the rear sights up and think I have things figured out.  I was shooting high in the field. (I tried a shot at moss on an oak) To see the bead I was basically using the sights like Daryls example of the express sights and not getting the bead down in the notch.  I cut the notch deeper and a little wider and even shot easier off the bench.  The sights Don mentioned that were lower likely were more open.  We use higher sights for targets to avoid heat mirage on the range.  The low sights were harder to knock off kilter and shots were taken occaisionally.  I would use Daryl's type but need time to get used to them. Plans for my hunting rifle is to have a close range express and a fold up peep on the tang.

DP

[Daryl]

DP - you might find a sight you can see and present easily, will improve accuracy at all ranges.  Express sights aren't just close range sights as some people have writen.  Usually this coment comes from people who lack experience with them.   All of the leaves on any typical English gun, be it a double or single barrel, are of the express-type - all the way to 600 yards on some rifles. If it was a close range sight only, I'd suspect the leaves past 50 yards or so would have  U or V notches instead, but the aren't.  For close range shooting, there was usually a pop-up huge ivory that was 3 to 4 times larger than the normal bead. That was a close range sight as it would just about cover a Lion at 50 yards.  The wide V is simple the best hunting sight the Brits could come up with.  It's interesting that sight has survived so long and is even being mounted on USA rifles deigned for heavy, dangerous game - that require pin-point accuracy applied quickly.

Considering ML hunting and target shooting is done at 100 yards or closer, we're only close range shooting anyway.
 

[Harnic]

Don, I wish you were the one setting the rules at the shoots around here!  I too believe one should use what ever sight he/she can see best!  I'd use peep sights front & rear if allowed.  I can still shoot minute of angle easily with my 45 Sharps using a globe front & Vernier tang rear sight but have trouble keeping my groups in 4 minutes of angle using open sights.  I suppose the rules are set to thin the competition but the ones who impose such stringent rules on one hand are the same folks who complain so bitterly about the falling attendance at their shoots....

[Daryl]

I can see the crosshairs in my varmint scopes REALLY well.  I guess limits must be placed somewhere.

[northmn]

It was my experience that the rules were set up to keep things "authentic".  Authenticity is a hard animal to pin down as I have seen a picture of a Jaeger with a "long range peep sight "  I believe the gun was mid to late 1700's.  As Daryl said, lines had to be drawn or Redfield Olympics would start showing up and so forth.  The funny thing was that custom rilfes were to have fixed open sights but we allowed production guns to use their adjustable sights.  Don Getz pointed out an interesting thing also in that most original longrifle sights were very low to the barrel.  Our higher sights were not really "authentic".  My gripe was that we had competition based on eyesight and not shooting ability.  I guess some clubs are now permitting non adjustable peep sights that are made reasonably discreet.
I am definitely going to make the Express sights.  Your point about 100 yards is well taken.  May go for a 2 leaf with one for very close and one for 100. A larger front bead (3/32) isn's all that bad for older eyes either.  I zeroed the 54 in for 75 yards and she shot well up close.  Amazing how much difference you can get at 100 yards.  Still hit a deer but it will be lower.  This has been one of the most messed up deer seasons I have seen, with many not seeing deer.  Weather has been a factor with storm fronts keeping them low.  At least my daughter got a nice doe with her modern gun.  Took her about a week of seeing nothing.  Now I have to go out and get a nice one or I will hear about my camp meat jackrabbit sized one.

DP

[Candle Snuffer]

Don, I wish you were the one setting the rules at the shoots around here!  I too believe one should use what ever sight he/she can see best!  I'd use peep sights front & rear if allowed.  I can still shoot minute of angle easily with my 45 Sharps using a globe front & Vernier tang rear sight but have trouble keeping my groups in 4 minutes of angle using open sights.  I suppose the rules are set to thin the competition but the ones who impose such stringent rules on one hand are the same folks who complain so bitterly about the falling attendance at their shoots....

We allow leverage at our monthly shoots, in as where if a person needs to use peep sights it's not a problem with us.  We would rather have the participation then a lack of.  We do draw the line at scopes however.  No scopes allowed.

Another of our thoughts at allowing the folks to use what sight works best for them is also based on a type of "period correctness" one might say.  I don't think it takes a scholar to figure out that if our forefathers had trouble seeing their sights they most likely came up with an alternative to help out their failing eyesight, be it any imaginable rear sight notch or home made peep, possibly made by the local gunsmith or blacksmith?

[Daryl]

Taylor has an original matchlock barrel in 'stock' - that came all the way from Gramphans in Holland. What a guy!  This barrel has a peep sight on it's rear breech surface if I remember correctly.

Shoots in this hemisphere are supposed to reflect a 'period' of time and yes, in that period of time, peep sights weren't in use much at all, hense the open sight principal. Yes- peep sights were used in some rifle competitions, especially in the civil-war period, as were guide bullet starters. An inline double barreled flint shotgun (or rifle) with completely enclosed breeches was built for the French King in the late 1700's but we don't allow inlines - shudder.

There is no problem with Harry using his little closed peep, although the same sight picture would work for him if it was indeed a cheater and was open at the top, or was as the U notch and beed I described earlier.  Although no one will cough at Harry using a peep, there are some shooters there whom I'd rather not see attempting to use 'mechanical' aides such as peeps.  Althought I'm only an average shot, I'd not feel right using a peep myself.  I might try the U notch and bead, though.  I had my AJ Parker and Central rear aperatures out for cleaning the other day, along with the Tiger-Eye and Ancheutz fronts, but they didn't look very authentic, sitting on my flinter.

[Candle Snuffer]

Glad to hear I don't have to worry if Harry will be able to shoot with a sight he can see through.

Yes, I too attend events where certain types of sights are not allowed.  For now I don't have any real trouble with sighting, though I expect this will change with age.  Failing eyesight knows no age or boundries.  We just try to stay in the game as long as we can.

[Jerry V Lape]

Daryl, I made a mockup of your shallow V sight and 1/10" bead sights and mounted them on a board to give me proper eye to sight distances.  The 1/10" bead out on the end of the 42" barrels isn't much different than a blade - doesn't give me enough circular definition to align well in the V.  Plan to try some larger bead dimensions later in the week.  I like the concept but for me the 1/10" bead is too small.  The other rear sight with round bottom notch with the 1/10" bead is no different for me than a medium width post and square notch.  My eyes are certainly not what they were 40 years ago. 

Going to try a couple buckhorn rears with the aperture added too.  I don't shoot matches, just practice and hunting.  The aperture rear buckhorn might be useful. 

[Daryl]

The odd original hawken had a full buckhorn, almost touching at the top, looking as if it didn't have a small knotch at the bottom. The only way I can see to use this sight, is as a peep. For that, it would excell.

The nice thing about the wide, open V with bead, is any size bead will work, so whatever is needed for sighting, is OK.  I definitely prefer a larger bead than 1/10" on the longer barrels. My current glasses perscription allows the smaller bead for target work as the front sight is almost sharp. Larger is certianly better for a hunting sight. I put a larger one on the .45 barrel for testing and shot the trail with it. It glowed beautifully in the dark bush or against a dark plate, yet showed nicely against light targets with the gun in the shade as well.