Half stock southern rifles?

[wvmtnman]

Here is a question for you southern mountain rifle guys. Did any of the builders in the southern mountain region who made fullstock rifles ever produce any half stock rifles,  that had the hand forged iron mountings?  I have seen plenty of fullstock rifles with iron and many halfstock rifles with brass but was wondering if anyone ever made a percussion halfstock with traditional southern mountain iron hardware.
I was just wondering because I have a nice halfstock walnut stock and a 37 inch 45 caliber barrel. 
                                                                  Brian 

[Ken G]

Hi Brian,
I've seen a couple.  Not having a chance to examine them close, I could not swear they were original half stocks.  I think quite a few were repaired into being half stocks. 
Jerry Nobles has a nice Bean half stock in one of his books with what looks to be a pewter nose cap. 
I would not hesitate building a Southern percussion half stock with forged hardware and thinking it to be totally correct. 

Cheers,
Ken

[Mike R]

They existed, I have seen photos of several.  I cannot tell you WHEN [or if] they were common--perhaps late in the history of such rifles. There is a repro pictured in Foxfire 5 that is supposed to be a copy of a Baxter Bean percussion halfstock. I have a copy of a photo of a noted Smoky Mt hunter/guide of the early 20th cent holding a long barreled half stock percussion piece and have seen a  few others from the Tenn-Carolina Mts...

[northmn]

Halfstock from fullstock was not an uncommon repair in any type of long rifle.  quite a few used wooden underribs which could be fastened by the underpinning lugs as well as additional means.  When one argues about "correctness", some of these common repairs may also be correct depending upon philosphy.

DP

[Ken G]

Northman,
I saw such a gun not long ago.  I went into an antique store with my wife and hanging on the wall was a halfstock rifle with a wooden underrib.  I learned a leason that day.  I left intending to come back when I had more time to really study the gun.  You guessed it.  Gone! 
Ken

[G-Man]

I have seen at least one with iron hardware that looked to have been originally built as a halfstock.  I also recall seeing at least one with mixed hardware (brass buttplate, iron triggerguard as well years ago at the Museum of Appalachia.  I think the one Myon Carlson copied also looked to have been built as a halfstock or "3/4 stock" as he called it since the wood extended forward a bit more than most halfstocks (the McKee).

The ones I saw were late looking percussion guns.   I wouldn't build one in flint.

Guy

[Steve Bookout]

"Southern" guns is a can of worms and a very broad subject.  Yes, there are many Southern guns that were half and 3/4 stocks intentionally made as such and sporting both brass and iron furniture.  Now, if you are specifically thinking about the class of rifles people associate with the East Tennessee region, yes, there are a few and not what you'd call common.  But short stock rifles become much more common as you travel West into the other two main Tennessee regions and on into Arkansas and Missouri.  These rifles have some distinctly different styling and furniture, and most were brass mounted.  As noted earlier, some were cut down to make a repair.  Cheers, Bookie P.S., Ken--There are at least 3 wooden under ribs guns that I am aware of. 

[Pete G.]

So just how is a wooden underrib attached, and how are the pipes attached to it ?
Is it shaped like the metal ribs we're familiar with ?

[wvmtnman]

If I am not mistaken, the rib is attached with either tennons or stakes.  For the tennon method, you would attach a tennon as you would to hold the stock in the barrel then drill and pin.  For the stake method, you drill the barrel and put a pin sticking up slightly past the height of the rib.  Drill a hole in the rib so the pin can pass through.  To attach, you pean the stake over the rib. 
For the pipes, they would be attached the same way they would be on a fullstock but through the wood rib.
                                                           Brian

[LynnC]

The bean rifle featured in Foxfire 5 and dated 1831 is a half stock with a pewter nose cap, patch box, Bean furniture and is FLINT.  Now I can't tell from the photos for sure but it looks original to me.  When it comes to Southern rifles I think you can about build what you like!

[rsells]

I have seen several half stocked mountain rifles that were built in my area of Tennessee that I feel sure were built that way originally.  They were built by a maker named Wes Goodman.  He did not sign his rifles, but he used a similiar trigger guard and a poured nose cap on both his full stocks as well as the half stocked rifles.  I have seen a couple of his full stocked rifles with copper thembles and even a  brass rear sight.  He used a typhical banana patch box on both full and half stocked rifles.  The barrel lengths were usually 37 to 41 inch on the lighter rifles and longer heavier barrels on the match rifles. 
                                                Roger Sells

[G-Man]

I don't recall the 1831 signed Bean in Foxfire 5 being a halfstock (the "C Bean for I Hendley" rifle?) but I could be wrong.  It always looked like a fullstock with cracked forend to me, but the photos in Foxfire 5 are not complete and I have never seen it in person.  If it is a halfstock it would be interesting to see the  lower barrel flats on the forward part of the gun to see if they were dressed out or left rough - might determine if it was built as a halfstock or not.

I sure wish they had published a little more about that gun and shown the lock as well.

One thing I found interesting is that they show that gun, with silver name plate in the barrel, and then on the next page discuss how most of the guns with silver "Bean" signed plates on the barrels were  beleived to be forgeries?.

That gun is another good example of the myth of the "long tang for wrist strength" theory - just about every one I've seen had the wrist crack at some point.  Some of these guns had very tiny little wrists and the metal on the long over the comb tangs is extremely thin.  I think it was purely for looks. 

In any case, yes there were halfstock mountain rifles, the ones I've seen were percussion - but there are infinite variations on these mountain rifles.  My preference would be to make a flint gun a fullstock but have fun and do what you like!

Guy

[Levy]

There is a J. Bean rifle in the collections of the Museum of Florida History that is a halfstock due to injury to the fullstock.  It has a silver inlay in the barrel with J. Bean on it.  The stock is walnut and the underrib is forged and staked on.  The really interesting thing about the rifle is the furniture is made from sheet brass in the same manner of construction as an iron mounted rifle.  The banana patchbox is double ended and full of tallow.  It is missing the percussion lock.

James Levy

[LynnC]

Guy,
I too thought it was a full stock until I noticed the underside of the forend photo and darned if you can't see the pewter nose cap.  Yeah, I wish there were more complete photos of that particular rifle....................Lynn

[G-Man]

Lynn- I just looked last night and was surprised to see that as well!  I had always thought it a full stock but like you said, you can see the cap in the photo if you look closely.

If I had to guess, with that early date I would suspect she was built as a fullstock originally and later shortened, but who knows for sure.


Best regards

Guy

[Sean]

Guy--I've always wondered if that gun wasn't originally a percussion half-stock that was one of the many 'reconverted caplock' southern guns.  The front lock bolt inlay makes me wonder if it wasn't a later addition, and the pictures in Noble's Volume 2 seem to hint that this gun actually has an underrib.  It would be an outlier if that date is right, but who knows with Bean guns.  I think the 1950-70 period was 'hard' on a lot of Bean guns and even some not-so-Bean guns.

Brian--If you look through Jerry Nobles books you'll see some of these guns that are mostly described as 3/4 stocks.  There's a not so great picture of an Alfred Bearden gun in volume II on page 100.  It really appears to be an original half stock, almost a plains rifle, with a rib, a beavertail cheek piece and a single lock bolt.  Ron Borron's southern Rifle plans also include a 3/4 stocked McKeg caplock rifle from NC.  Tough to say if it was originally a 3/4 from the plan, but it shows an iron nose cap, no rib, and folded sheet iron thimbles that are riveted directly to the barrel.

Sean

[LynnC]

I does mention in the FF5 text that Hacker Martin made the replaced hammer (cock) thus "implying" that the rest of the lock is original flint.  Original flint and fullstock, Who knows???  I still like the looks of the rifle...............Lynn

[T.C.Albert]

The McKee is detailed in the set of southern mountain rifle drawings by Ron Boron, and is available from Log Cabin shop I think? The drawings were taken directly from Myrons rifle, and its really a neat gun...very long and not like a traditional half stock...it really has an elegance all its own.

Also, Wiley Oakley, the rambling man of the Smokies favored a long half stock muzzle loading rifle, and several photographs of him with his rifle exist...I spoke to his son about it once years ago, and he told me he still had the rifle, and often gave talks about it and his father at the visitors center at the Smokie Mountain National park...he may still be able to be comtacted about it???

I really like the lines and looks of half stock mountain rifles...
T.C.A.

[Sean]

I does mention in the FF5 text that Hacker Martin made the replaced hammer (cock) thus "implying" that the rest of the lock is original flint.  Original flint and fullstock, Who knows???  I still like the looks of the rifle...............Lynn

Based on the odd shaped pan for an English lock of the 1830's, my guess is that he reconverted it.  However, I've also heard folks joke that ol' Hacker made more Bean rifles than the whole family put together.

Sean

[LynnC]

Oh how I wish we had a good lock side view!!!................Lynn

[Sean]

Lynn,

Not a great one, but see Jerry Noble's 'Notes on Southern Long Rifles II'.  Its on page 103 .  The pan is triangular shaped instead of the round one you'd expect.  On looking at it again, I'll retract my concerns about the front lock bolt and inlay possibly being added.  The J.I. Bean rifle on page 102 is also a flint fullstock and it has the same front lockbolt inlay as the Hendly gun.  There's also a restocked Baxter Bean gun on page 104 with the same front lock bolt inlay.  There is also a percussion Charlie Bean Sr./Robt. Bean caplock full stock without a front lock bolt on page 102.  Guard, trickers, tang, box etc. appear same.  The buttplate construction appears similar though with a little more curvature. 

Sean

[Steve Bookout]

There's a Hacker Martin flint lock on the Toad Hall web site's front page.

[LynnC]

Sean - I got to get me a set of those books!

What style is the lock, English I'd suspect.
Germanic style pan?  Reconverted???  Or is it late English flint with the narrow V shaped water proof pan?
Lynn

[Sean]

Lynn, its round tailed with a step on the tail.  Its English and the v-shaped pan is more than likely an addition.  I highly recommend Jerry's books.  If you're interested in these guns, his books represent a lifetime of experience with them.  They are a great resource.

Sean

[Carper]

In the past I have owned two Loving (Lawing) halfstocks, a Bible halfstock, one Honaker half stock with a forged triggerguard and no plate at all. None gave the impression or showed any sign of ever having a forestock pinned to them, although the Lawing had an unusually long channel between the rear thimble and the nosecap (about a foot). Of interest , most of the halfstocks from this area that I have seen (1865- 1927) have 40 or so inch barrels. I have seen a few iron mounted rifles by the Carpers from the period when I know they were making some fancy halfstocks but all the iron mounted rifles were fullstock, why I have no idea.  Johnny