Author Topic: How big is too big for tree rats??  (Read 24786 times)

blunderbuss

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2011, 02:51:25 AM »
I like my .25 uses tiny amounts of lead an 10 gr ffg Small loading blocks ect

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2011, 06:09:20 AM »
Tried to get Taylor to build his walnut stocked .25 next, to no avail.

Offline Robby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2623
  • NYSSR ―
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2011, 06:15:46 PM »
Probably too much ::).

Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5316
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2011, 07:23:37 PM »
The CBs I've chronographed did a little better easily breaking 800fps from a 22" bbl.  I've killed scores with that round as well as .177 pellet rifle.  30grns of Goex 3F in my Crockett gives (IIRC) around 1700fps.  Body shots on grays did no more damage than a .22LR HP.  I'm sure a shoulder hit would have done some damage.  Using 20grns showed good accuracy but 30grns was the best so That's what I decided to go with.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9810
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2011, 09:54:54 PM »
I compared my 25 loaded at about 1650, chronographed to a 22 LRHP in wet pack and found about the same size hole from either with penetration going to the LR, as would be expected.  Round ball do not ahve the penetration of bullets and the little 24 grain ball was giving up weight to begin with.  The extra penetration is not a factor as either shoot through most smaller game.  Unless head shooting, whcih most of us try for, I found the 32 to be a bit extreme and went to a 40 for that reason, as I was also target shooting with the same gun.  Still the 32 is a very nice little rifle.  One thing no one has mentioned that can be too much for squirrel is a heavy fowler load of shot.  While some consider them sacreligous for squirrel hunting, there is a place for a folwer, especially if game birds like grouse are also available.  Also some days the grey squirrels do not want to stop to offer a shot.  Shot also does not carry as far in populated areas.  Generally I load about one ounce or less of #5 for squirrel in the 20 or 12 bore.  Even gotten a few grouse with that load.  May look at a steel load as sometimes I come across potholes.  For many conditions 410 equivalent loads might be great.

DP

I always found grays more sporting its true. But being quiet and careful in the woods works wonders.
Shotgun? I would fear breaking a tooth on the shot and never hunted squirrels with them, might have shot one with a 410 once. But it seems like cheating to me.
For one thing an ounce of lead for a critter that big seems a little overkill when 50 grains of lead is plently not to mention more of a challenge.

What distance did you shoot the wet pack? I have had reports that the 25 is very range limited.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline tallbear

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4023
  • Mitch Yates
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2011, 12:38:57 AM »
Guys
I've pruned this thread back some.Please keep to blackpowder firearms.Leave the modern stuff to other forums.

Mitch

BrownBear

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2011, 06:40:39 PM »
Thanks Mitch!

I want to come back to a point I slipped in earlier.

Has anyone else had trouble with squirrels taking a "death grip" on a limb when you head shoot them using smaller calibers? 

I'm planning someday to take my 30 cal back to the lower 48 for a dedicated squirrel hunt, but in the past I've left dead squirrels hanging or laying high in trees when using small loads.  The experience moved me up the caliber scale with modern arms, lo those many years ago.

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5316
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2011, 06:55:48 PM »
When using 30grns 3F in my .32 it always seems to knock them flying.  It gives plenty of impact without much damage.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9810
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2011, 08:46:24 PM »
Thanks Mitch!

I want to come back to a point I slipped in earlier.

Has anyone else had trouble with squirrels taking a "death grip" on a limb when you head shoot them using smaller calibers? 

I'm planning someday to take my 30 cal back to the lower 48 for a dedicated squirrel hunt, but in the past I've left dead squirrels hanging or laying high in trees when using small loads.  The experience moved me up the caliber scale with modern arms, lo those many years ago.

No. But I never shot anything smaller than 32. But it essentially removes the head with 30 grains of powder.
Squirrels head shot with a 22 will sometime spasm and "jump". Had not previously heard of then locking onto a limb but anything is possible.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Dancy

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2011, 09:20:08 PM »
How about from a safety issue shooting in the air? Seems a 40 would do a lot of damage coming down on someone where a 32 might not.

hlary

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2011, 05:36:42 PM »
I have squirrel hunted with the same .36 rifle since 1979. I used to shoot heavy loads too when i didn't know any better. I use 15 grn 3f and have for most of those years. It runs about 1230 fps over the chronograph and that's plenty for squirrels. I have killed a couple of doe with that same rifle using 30 to 35 grns and the ball (.350)went all the way through both times with an impressive amount of damage. I just received this year a new squirrel rifle built by Marc Tornichio in .36 also. By the way, if you like beautiful iron mounted rifles, you owe it to yourself to look this guy up. Anyway, the new rifle has a 42 inch Ed Rayl, round bottom rifled barrel, and with my pet load of 15 grns will put all shots into one ragged hole at 40 yards off the bench. I hear some of you speak about "accuracy" loads but you can't get any better than one hole. Is .36 the perfect caliber? I doubt it. Just what I prefer. I think the question oughta be "how much powder" rather than how big the caliber. To J.Dancy i say: get a hard hat and face shield and you'll do fine!


« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 06:41:20 PM by Daryl »

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2011, 06:41:34 PM »
I have squirrel hunted with the same .36 rifle since 1979. I used to shoot heavy loads too when i didn't know any better. I use 15 grn 3f and have for most of those years. It runs about 1230 fps over the chronograph and that's plenty for squirrels. I have killed a couple of doe with that same rifle using 30 to 35 grns and the ball (.350)went all the way through both times with an impressive amount of damage. I just received this year a new squirrel rifle built by Marc Tornichio in .36 also. By the way, if you like beautiful iron mounted rifles, you owe it to yourself to look this guy up. Anyway, the new rifle has a 42 inch Ed Rayl, round bottom rifled barrel, and with my pet load of 15 grns will put all shots into one ragged hole at 40 yards off the bench. I hear some of you speak about "accuracy" loads but you can't get any better than one hole. Is .36 the perfect caliber? I doubt it. Just what I prefer. I think the question oughta be "how much powder" rather than how big the caliber. To J.Dancy i say: get a hard hat and face shield and you'll do fine!

hlary - that's really good accuracy with the tiny 15gr. charge. As you said, it doesn't get better than that.

My own .32 won't put 30gr. charges inside 2"a t 50 yards, nor will it put 20gr. charges inside 3". As th chargd is increased, groups get smaller until 35gr. shoots an inch, even. Going to 40gr. again opens the group to 1 1/2".  My rifle has a 48" twist.  At 25yards, any load from 20gr. up to 40gr., puts then all into a dime sized group- 5 or 10 shot groups. It's at the longer ranges where the light charges fail - in my rifles.

Since squirrel shooting is such a short range venture, normally, I'd be inclinded to use the 20gr. measure.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 06:43:26 PM by Daryl »

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5316
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2011, 11:20:40 PM »
Can't argue with a one hole group at 40yds; that's better than excellent.  I have on occasion done better than that.  I have several targets with NO HOLE in them at all.  Talk about perfection! ;D
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

hlary

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2011, 12:24:56 AM »
I can shoot a one hole half inch group at most any distance with my .50 if i put the rifle away after the first shot!

Offline axelp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1517
    • TomBob Outdoors, LLC.
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2011, 01:08:58 AM »
How big is too big? I don't think there is a size limit on tree rats. I shot one two years ago that I swear was the size of a fat housecat. ;D ;D
Galations 2:20

Mike R

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2011, 07:38:08 PM »
How big is too big? I don't think there is a size limit on tree rats. I shot one two years ago that I swear was the size of a fat housecat. ;D ;D

I saw one in my back yard yesterday that I thought was a raccon at first!

Leatherbelly

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2011, 10:13:30 PM »
My friend Tim uses a tomahawk. His new name is "squirrelie". Hawk and knife throw...squirrel sits on block,munching a pinecone. Little kids and wife watching.Tim thinks "I'll never hit it" as he is a terrible H&K thrower. Splits the rodent in two,blood spurting out of decapped body. Wife and little girls scream!! new name gathered! "Squirrelie", lmao!

camerl2009

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2011, 01:03:26 AM »
My friend Tim uses a tomahawk. His new name is "squirrelie". Hawk and knife throw...squirrel sits on block,munching a pinecone. Little kids and wife watching.Tim thinks "I'll never hit it" as he is a terrible H&K thrower. Splits the rodent in two,blood spurting out of decapped body. Wife and little girls scream!! new name gathered! "Squirrelie", lmao!

that be a sight to see im lucky to hit a 12" target with mine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9810
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2011, 04:33:59 AM »
How about from a safety issue shooting in the air? Seems a 40 would do a lot of damage coming down on someone where a 32 might not.

The range of even a 40 is very limited at its max trajectory angle. Less than 1000 yards. This would be at about 45 degrees I think. Higher angles will reduce the range. If it hits anything very substantial its not going far at all. RBs that hit the ground and skip out seldom exceed 200 yards.
Even a 54 will not make it over 1000 from some testing a friend did years ago.
Bulleted MLs are something else and have extreme ranges similar to some cartridge guns.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9810
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2011, 04:36:21 AM »
How big is too big? I don't think there is a size limit on tree rats. I shot one two years ago that I swear was the size of a fat housecat. ;D ;D
While I have no science to back it up that neutered males get big. And that other squirrels have been known to do this in fights. But its only "anecdotal".

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2011, 07:08:06 PM »
My computer program gives a .395" ball having a ballistic coefficient of .055, and an initial velocity of 1,350fps, a max range of 570yards. At 25 yards, the ball is 55.89" above the line of sight - that's 4.65feet - not a lot of angle, but anything greater, reduces it's maximum range. Shooting up into a tree, while not the best way to fire a shot, presents little possibility of harm unless a populated area is close by,which is doubtful if you are out hunting.

At 2,200fps, it has a max range of 641yards. The at 25 yards, the height above line of sight is 50.44"- or 4.22feet so you can see the angle of departure is not anywhere near as steep as shooting up into a tree.  At anything more accute than this angle, the maximum range is reduced.

As can be seen, the angle of departure for max range with a round ball is considerably lower than with elongated projectiles. I can only surmise this is due to the rapid decay of velocity with such a low BC projectile.

I make the max range for a .535" ball at 1,350fps - (70 to 75gr. 2F) as being 777yards and is 76.67" high at 25 yards, which is 6.39feet.

hlary

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2011, 10:42:44 PM »
this is gettin' way too complicated. Here'e what my slide rule says: small tree rats get fried, medium tree rats get smoked or roasted and the really big 'uns get boiled and go in the dumplin pot.

Offline Brian

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6364
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2011, 07:49:55 PM »
Thanks Mitch!

I want to come back to a point I slipped in earlier.

Has anyone else had trouble with squirrels taking a "death grip" on a limb when you head shoot them using smaller calibers? 

I'm planning someday to take my 30 cal back to the lower 48 for a dedicated squirrel hunt, but in the past I've left dead squirrels hanging or laying high in trees when using small loads.  The experience moved me up the caliber scale with modern arms, lo those many years ago.

Robbie's suggestion should resolve that problem quite nicely.  ;D
"This is my word, and as such is beyond contestation"

northmn

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2011, 09:41:58 PM »
I compared my 25 loaded at about 1650, chronographed to a 22 LRHP in wet pack and found about the same size hole from either with penetration going to the LR, as would be expected.  Round ball do not ahve the penetration of bullets and the little 24 grain ball was giving up weight to begin with.  The extra penetration is not a factor as either shoot through most smaller game.  Unless head shooting, whcih most of us try for, I found the 32 to be a bit extreme and went to a 40 for that reason, as I was also target shooting with the same gun.  Still the 32 is a very nice little rifle.  One thing no one has mentioned that can be too much for squirrel is a heavy fowler load of shot.  While some consider them sacreligous for squirrel hunting, there is a place for a folwer, especially if game birds like grouse are also available.  Also some days the grey squirrels do not want to stop to offer a shot.  Shot also does not carry as far in populated areas.  Generally I load about one ounce or less of #5 for squirrel in the 20 or 12 bore.  Even gotten a few grouse with that load.  May look at a steel load as sometimes I come across potholes.  For many conditions 410 equivalent loads might be great.

DP

I always found grays more sporting its true. But being quiet and careful in the woods works wonders.
Shotgun? I would fear breaking a tooth on the shot and never hunted squirrels with them, might have shot one with a 410 once. But it seems like cheating to me.
For one thing an ounce of lead for a critter that big seems a little overkill when 50 grains of lead is plently not to mention more of a challenge.

What distance did you shoot the wet pack? I have had reports that the 25 is very range limited.

Dan
Been out hunting and other things.  I shot into the wetpack at maybe 25 yards.  At a squirrel distance. or tree top height.  My older eyes are not good for a very long shot anymore.  As stated, the 25 has shot through them and casued plenty of damage.  There are also grouse in my squirrel woods so using a shotgun or fowler permits more opportunity.  When I squirrel hunt for just squirrels I use a rifle, but that is a very relaxing sit em out game.

DP

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: How big is too big for tree rats??
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2011, 01:01:03 AM »
 Up here it don't matter,.25 or a 12 pounder.. You may as well shoot pine cones because the squirrels taste the same.The hair off the tail makes good hackles for flies,dats it! For upland birds,the .25 would be fine,the 12 pounder...not!  ;D

LB's not just whistling Dixie - the hair is great for hair-wing steelhead flies used in greased-line presentation.  The mottled colours on the super soft hair help with the bugginess of them, where every little current change waves the hairs quite dramatically, almost like soft feather.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 01:03:35 AM by Daryl »