Are these the same rifle?

[Artificer]

Folks, I hope you don't think this question is silly, but Im wondering if the rifle listed as "RWg113d- Pennsylvania rifle inscribed Liberty or Death on the brass patchbox" in this link is the same as RCA Volume II, Page 600, No.140? 

http://www.historicalimagebank.com/gallery/main.php/v/album02/album21/album48/?g2_page=11

Thank you.  Gus

[JTR]

Gus, Yes, same gun.
The picture on the web-site isn't too good. But compare the barrel pin or lug hole in the stock, just over the tail of the rear ram rod pipe in the book and on the web-site. Same hogged out hole on both, so has to be the same gun.
I wonder if it's for sale?
John

[Habu]

It looks like "Historical Image Bank" is a stock photo company--they sell pictures, not the items in the pictures. 

[Artificer]

Gus, Yes, same gun.
The picture on the web-site isn't too good. But compare the barrel pin or lug hole in the stock, just over the tail of the rear ram rod pipe in the book and on the web-site. Same hogged out hole on both, so has to be the same gun.
I wonder if it's for sale?
John

John,

Thanks a bunch.  I still can't see well out of my left eye due to eye surgery, so I can't fully trust my eyes.  Really appreciate it.
Gus

[woodwright]

Artificer, I was very supprised to find a post about the rifle I have spent the better part on this afternoon researching. It is pictured on page 92 of Don Troiani's Soldiers of the American Revolution and on page 79 of Weapons of the American Revolution by Warren Moore. Mr. Troiani lists it as a rifle while Mr. Moore lists it as a small bore musket. I wonder which is correct?
If anyone knows of any other images of this flintlock or where it currently resides i would appreciate knowing.

Woodwright

[Artificer]

Artificer, I was very supprised to find a post about the rifle I have spent the better part on this afternoon researching. It is pictured on page 92 of Don Troiani's Soldiers of the American Revolution and on page 79 of Weapons of the American Revolution by Warren Moore. Mr. Troiani lists it as a rifle while Mr. Moore lists it as a small bore musket. I wonder which is correct?
If anyone knows of any other images of this flintlock or where it currently resides i would appreciate knowing.

Woodwright

Talk about coincidence.  I also was looking at page 79 of Mr. Moore's book this afternoon as well.  I thought it was a different gun because one states it is rifled while another states it is smooth bore. 

Gus

[Artificer]

Woodwright,

Forgot to mention I "think" Don Troiani owns the historical image website, so you may try contacting that site to learn more about the rifle.

http://www.historicalimagebank.com/

Regards, Gus

[debnal]

I belive that the items in the image bank constitute Don Troiani's collection. What a fine grouping of items! One of the finest collections extant.
Al

[Artificer]

I don't wish to jump to conclusions or disparage Mr. Troiani (I LOVE his prints) but in both RCA and Mr.Moore's book, it is stated to be a smoothbore -  if all three listings are indeed the same gun. 

Gus

[debnal]

If I had to guess I would lean toward smoothbore. The barrel appears to be a musket type with a bayonet lug. Just conjecture from minimal evidence.
Al

[Artificer]

If I had to guess I would lean toward smoothbore. The barrel appears to be a musket type with a bayonet lug. Just conjecture from minimal evidence.
Al

I agree.  I don't know how common Smooth Rifles were with round barrels were then, but as I understand it, they were not real common. 

[Dphariss]

I thought this was interesting
http://www.historicalimagebank.com/gallery/main.php/v/album02/album21/album48/RWg71d_Four_musket_balls_with_nails_pounded_thru_to_inflict_bad_wounds_Found_near_Fort_Ticonderoga_about_70_caliber.jpg.html

I wonder if this increased accuracy by putting a "tail" on the ball.

Just a thought.

Dan

[Dphariss]

I don't wish to jump to conclusions or disparage Mr. Troiani (I LOVE his prints) but in both RCA and Mr.Moore's book, it is stated to be a smoothbore -  if all three listings are indeed the same gun. 

Gus

I have read, here, that some of the guns listed as "smooth" have traces of rifling when bore scoped.
Maybe he bore scoped it or simply took a more careful look.

Dan

[Fullstock longrifle]

That link to the round balls with nails in them is interesting. While relic hunting in Civil War camps year ago, I found several round balls with nails pounded in them in a similar manner.  I always assumed that it was just bored solders trying to occupy their minds when they had down time in camp.

FK

[woodwright]

I do not have immediate access to a copy of RCA Volume II, so I have not see the photos of this gun in that book. But, studying the photos in Moore's Weapons of the American Revolution and from the Military Image Bank web site, I noticed the following: The sideplate looks very similar to an early model Brown Bess, but not exactly the same. Could it be a Bess sideplate that has been altered? The upper ramrod thimble has a flared opening like a Bess or other military musket. The ramrod appears to be metal and the end is very similar to a French Charleville. I suspect this is an American made musket assembled with re-used parts from other muskets and a new stock. I would love to know if there are any marks on the barrel.

Woodwright

[Habu]

I thought this was interesting
http://www.historicalimagebank.com/gallery/main.php/v/album02/album21/album48/RWg71d_Four_musket_balls_with_nails_pounded_thru_to_inflict_bad_wounds_Found_near_Fort_Ticonderoga_about_70_caliber.jpg.html

I wonder if this increased accuracy by putting a "tail" on the ball.

Just a thought.

Dan

I tried some of those after seeing pictures (maybe in Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution?).  Accuracy went out the window, but they sure tore up the targets. 

[woodwright]

Re. The mutilated musket balls

Quoting from page 60 and 61 in The Book of The Continental Soldier by Peterson:

"In October 1777, Washington made the practice of using buckshot universal by ordering that "Buckshot are to be put into all cartridges which shall hereafter be made."

Even this lethality was not enough for some, however. Whether they were more ferocious or just more inventive, such individuals mutilated musket balls by cutting them so that they would fragment or at least flatten out upon impact. A few went even further. In 1776 British General Sir William Howe complained to Washington:

My Aid de Camp charged with the Delivering of this letter will present to you a Ball cut and fixed to the Ends of a Nail, taken from a Number of the same kind, found in the Encampments quitted by your Troops on the 15th Instant. I do not make any comments upon such unwarrantable and malicious Practices, being well assured the Contrivance has not come to your Knowledge.

General Howe was apparently just as ignorant of the fact that the same kind of missile was used by his own men, for several such balls were found in the excavation of a British camp at Inwood, New York and are now preserved in the New York Historical Society's museum."

Woodwright

[Artificer]

I have read, here, that some of the guns listed as "smooth" have traces of rifling when bore scoped.
Maybe he bore scoped it or simply took a more careful look.

Dan

That is possible, of course.  Also, Mr. Troiani may have intended to right "Smooth Rifle" and it got shortened to just rifle on the image bank.

Gus

[Artificer]

I do not have immediate access to a copy of RCA Volume II, so I have not see the photos of this gun in that book. But, studying the photos in Moore's Weapons of the American Revolution and from the Military Image Bank web site, I noticed the following: The sideplate looks very similar to an early model Brown Bess, but not exactly the same. Could it be a Bess sideplate that has been altered? The upper ramrod thimble has a flared opening like a Bess or other military musket. The ramrod appears to be metal and the end is very similar to a French Charleville. I suspect this is an American made musket assembled with re-used parts from other muskets and a new stock. I would love to know if there are any marks on the barrel.

Woodwright

My repaired retina eye keeps me from seeing some of that kind of detail on the image from the link.  I did notice the brown bess style sideplate in both Mr. Moore's book and RCA Vol II.  In RCA II, it states the lockplate is 6 1/8” long.  I am not positive, but I don’t think that is too long for an early style, rounded English sporting lock.  Also, there is “civilian” engraving on the lock rather than any sort of military engraving.  Of course, anyone who engraves “Liberty or Deth” on the gun probably would get rid of any British military engraving, I would think. 

I guess the best thing to do is write an inquiry to historical images and see if they have any information on whether this is a smooth bore, or has traces of rifling left as Dan suggested, or is a smooth rifle. 

Gus

[Dphariss]

I have read, here, that some of the guns listed as "smooth" have traces of rifling when bore scoped.
Maybe he bore scoped it or simply took a more careful look.

Dan

That is possible, of course.  Also, Mr. Troiani may have intended to right "Smooth Rifle" and it got shortened to just rifle on the image bank.

Gus

Having to depend on others then finding different bore sizes and/or bore types listed for the same firearm in different places can be very confusing and frustrating. Who does one believe in such a case?
Its not very important to most collectors but people with deeper interests see it as an important part of the study of antique firearms and the uses they were put too.

Dan

[JTR]

Its not very important to most collectors but people with deeper interests see it as an important part of the study of antique firearms and the uses they were put too.
Dan
[/quote]

What? 

John