2 vents ?

[bob in the woods]

Looking at the new CLA photos on the Contemporary Maker's blog today, and the 6th photo down shows what looks to be 2 vents right beside each other . Is anyone familiar with this , or seen it  before?

[Ben I. Voss]

Hmm. Weird.

[Don Getz]

The double touch hole thing is a Keith Casteel innovation.  Personally, I see no need for this, I can't imagine anything
better than a white lightning................Don

[C Wallingford]

I have seen two vents  used in the past. Most referred to it as a "hog nose". I agree with Don I see no need if you use a white lightning.

[Mike Brooks]

Silly gimmick

[Captchee]

Actually Don , its not something that Keith just came up with .
 I wish off the top of my head I could remember where  it was that I first read or saw  the application of the double vent . But im thinking it was in  very early 19th century Liege writings .

 I remember thinking at the time that it was a rather odd idea . I do recall though that the thought was that a double vent  would reduce the resistance pressure that the flash would encounter as it entered the flash hole . IE the heat and flash wave entering one hole , would push  the compressed air in front of it , out the other  thus speeding up ignition ..
 Personally I think its just another gimmick of  a time when  folks were trying to wring out every last possible improvement to the flintlock ignition that they could .

[Roger Fisher]

Southern maker at Dixon's Fair 9 or such years ago had the snake eyes vents on his long rifles.  Odd for certain.  His name ?

[Robert Wolfe]

If one is good, two must be better. Right?!

[Dphariss]

Silly gimmick

Exactly.
Like German rifles with square or heart shaped bores.

Dan

[bgf]

Useless as it probably is, there could have been a lot of thought put into it.  Some thinking along the lines of it giving primer 2x exposure area to the charge while reducing the powder and/or pressure loss through the vent.  I.e., simply drilling out the vent 50% larger does the same thing, but they may have hoped that the flow of gasses back through two small holes would be more restricted than the one larger hole.  Many similarly useless things are done these days, e.g., ported barrels (my opinion only).  1000's of ideas will be tried and found pointless for every one that becomes historically correct standard practice.

[Belleville]

"I.e., simply drilling out the vent 50% larger does the same thing...". You are correct and it would even provide more area ... increasing touch hole dia. by 50% actually provides more touch hole area than adding a 2nd hole at the same dia.

Had not heard of the 2 touch hole system before! The only thing that might be a factor is the 2 small touch hole system might provide more orifice effect than one larger touch hole, so as to provide a higher pressure in the barrel with similar touch hole areas?

Doc S.

[mark esterly]

i,ve read and heard so much about vent liner troubles and the need to drill them out larger etc.  the need for the white lightning liner (which i have if i ever see the need for it ) but in all honesty i've never had trouble with the guns i shoot firing and firing fast with a ordinary 1/4 x 28 vent liner. i tend to think something else is amiss if the gun doesn't fire proper or am i missing something that everyone else understands.

[camerl2009]

Silly gimmick

Exactly.
Like German rifles with square or heart shaped bores.

Dan

id love to see a square or heart shaped bore got any pics

[elk killer]

i shot a Oregon Trail Rifle Leman for years that had a double touch hole.
was told that someone else, not OTR did the touch hole.
could not tell one bit of difference between that and a regular 1/4x28 liner.
seems it made zero difference in ignition,that rifle had one touch hole on top of the other
instead of side by side

[LRB]

i,ve read and heard so much about vent liner troubles and the need to drill them out larger etc.  the need for the white lightning liner (which i have if i ever see the need for it ) but in all honesty i've never had trouble with the guns i shoot firing and firing fast with a ordinary 1/4 x 28 vent liner. i tend to think something else is amiss if the gun doesn't fire proper or am i missing something that everyone else understands.

I thought the same about the white lightening, until I shot a rifle last week that had one. I thought my own rifle was fast, but this one almost seemed to fire before the flint struck the frizzen. I am very impressed with the white lightening. I wish it was made in 1/4 x 28. My barrel does not have room on the flat to re-drill and tap for a white lightening.

[Dphariss]

Silly gimmick

Exactly.
Like German rifles with square or heart shaped bores.

Dan

id love to see a square or heart shaped bore got any pics

I found some drawings or pics in a book someplace.
These are likely guild master work stuff.
Its just "lookee what I can do" showoff stuff.
Did a quick look and did not find them.

Dan

[mark esterly]

lrb
i hope you didn't get the idea that i was unimpressed with the white lightening liners as that is not what i meant. quite the contrary. i like the design and installation method.  i simply have not had the opportunity to use it yet. i bought it in 2002 and i am of the" if it ain't broke don't fix it "school and i shoot often. my next build however, it is at hand. i find all mr. chamber's products top notch and have used his stock finish on my rifle, knife handles as well as other small projects. my point was simply what some folks think is a vent liner problem really isn't and they do not need to be drilled out larger or nearly everyone would have the same problem and they would be manufactured with larger holes. i have the same size vent hole in  a green mountain .50 cal, a colerain .58 and i think a tc .50

[LRB]

  Not at all Mark. I was just pointing out that I thought my gun was fast with my modified liner, but the white lightening liner was the fastest I have ever fired. If my barrel flat would allow, I would put one in yesterday. Yes, and I also agree on hole size. IMHO, if a 1/16" doesn't give reliable ignition, there is some other problem.

[Joe S]

id love to see a square or heart shaped bore got any pics

“In 1718, James Puckle of London, England, demonstrated his new invention, the "Puckle Gun," a tripod-mounted, single-barreled flintlock gun fitted with a multishot revolving cylinder. This weapon fired nine shots per minute at a time when the standard soldier's musket could be loaded and fired but three times per minute. Puckle demonstrated two versions of the basic design. One weapon, intended for use against Christian enemies, fired conventional round bullets, while the second variant, designed to be used against the Muslim Turks, fired square bullets, which were believed to cause more severe and painful wounds than spherical projectiles.”

[FL-Flintlock]

id love to see a square or heart shaped bore got any pics

“In 1718, James Puckle of London, England, demonstrated his new invention, the "Puckle Gun," a tripod-mounted, single-barreled flintlock gun fitted with a multishot revolving cylinder. This weapon fired nine shots per minute at a time when the standard soldier's musket could be loaded and fired but three times per minute. Puckle demonstrated two versions of the basic design. One weapon, intended for use against Christian enemies, fired conventional round bullets, while the second variant, designed to be used against the Muslim Turks, fired square bullets, which were believed to cause more severe and painful wounds than spherical projectiles.”

... and thus the origin of the "pucker factor" ... 

[Daryl]

i,ve read and heard so much about vent liner troubles and the need to drill them out larger etc.  the need for the white lightning liner (which i have if i ever see the need for it ) but in all honesty i've never had trouble with the guns i shoot firing and firing fast with a ordinary 1/4 x 28 vent liner. i tend to think something else is amiss if the gun doesn't fire proper or am i missing something that everyone else understands.

I thought the same about the white lightening, until I shot a rifle last week that had one. I thought my own rifle was fast, but this one almost seemed to fire before the flint struck the frizzen. I am very impressed with the white lightening. I wish it was made in 1/4 x 28. My barrel does not have room on the flat to re-drill and tap for a white lightening.

LRBp no problem - make your own. A lathe is very handy for htis, of course, but a poor man's lathe (electric drill and bench vice) will also work - with some skill added.  I used to make all sorts of things- nipples, priming devices for using pistol primers, etc, with a poor man's lathe - the vent is easy in comparrison - and my skill level really sucks. btw.

[Tim Crosby]

Southern maker at Dixon's Fair 9 or such years ago had the snake eyes vents on his long rifles.  Odd for certain.  His name ?

  Roger, are you thinking of Allan Sandy? I know he uses two vents.

  Tim C.

[LRB]

  Daryl, I have made a few in the past, but buying is just much easier.

[camerl2009]

id love to see a square or heart shaped bore got any pics

“In 1718, James Puckle of London, England, demonstrated his new invention, the "Puckle Gun," a tripod-mounted, single-barreled flintlock gun fitted with a multishot revolving cylinder. This weapon fired nine shots per minute at a time when the standard soldier's musket could be loaded and fired but three times per minute. Puckle demonstrated two versions of the basic design. One weapon, intended for use against Christian enemies, fired conventional round bullets, while the second variant, designed to be used against the Muslim Turks, fired square bullets, which were believed to cause more severe and painful wounds than spherical projectiles.”

i know about the puckle gun and the square bullets but ive never seen a normal long gun with it

[Majorjoel]

Two vents in a flintlock barrel kind of reminds me of a late uncle of mine. He got a hole in the bottom of his fishing boat  so he drilled another hole for the water to run out of.