Sassafras for stock wood

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

All I know is that when its cold and wet in the woods, finding a sassafras tree and getting some root to grate up and make tea with over the fire is a good way to get warm!!!  I know........... its supposed to be bad for you and even cause cancer in mice........   Handling lead balls will give you lead poisoning too........

[Glenn]

All I know is that when its cold and wet in the woods, finding a sassafras tree and getting some root to grate up and make tea with over the fire is a good way to get warm!!!  I know........... its supposed to be bad for you and even cause cancer in mice........   Handling lead balls will give you lead poisoning too........

I think it is one of the original ingredients in "root beer".  I've never heard of it being bad for you but I have always heard of it being medicinal.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

How light are you aiming for?  Rifle, smoothbore, fowler? 

[FL-Flintlock]

BUMMER ... They didn't do pear or pecan.  Thanks for posting the link though.  I'm going to save it.

There's several different varieties of Pear, some are suitable for stocks, some are not.

[Glenn]

I still think a lot of rifles and other weapons back in the day were made with the best materials for the project that was mostly available within the builder's locale.

We dont really have the sugar maples here but we do have silver maples.  We dont have apple or cherry trees here like up north but we do have pear, hickory, pecan, mesquite, sycamore, and others.  I can't recall seeing walnut, beech or butternut down here.

[dbr]

Being post #2 Im likely not going to inspire the confidence of the peers with anything I might add.  So just a comment. I have seen a couple rifles stocked in Sassafras.  The grain appeared to be compact and the rifles were light. Other then being one of those people who needs to see a certain wood on certain rifles it appeared to be servicable and adequate.  I have never worked sassafras.
I have handled several nice cased pistols stocked in fruit wood and it may have been common in France. Apple makes a darn fine pipe and reminds me of brier. It will have directional grain.  It wants to be worked one direction. It is strong and light and will finish with little application of oil or varnish.
Butternut is almost identicle to Black Walnut,  I dont know how the weights match but it must be close.  When Identifying the trees its hard to tell a Black Walnut from A Butternut with out examining a couple telltail points That is the nut or the end of the leaf stem when broken from the branch. Old timers called it white walnut for obvious reasons.
Largest Sassafras Ive seen is about 3 or more feet across the but.  On rainy days if in  a stand of sassafras those little dead light brown sprigs when broken off the tree will ignite and burn like someone doused them with kerosene. And you wont have to go far to find something good to drink once the fire is up and running.

[Captchee]

 
if one looks at the Janka scale , you  will see that Sassafras isnt even close to  sugar maple or walnut in it average hardness . In fact its only marginally harder then black spruce

http://www.sizes.com/units/janka.htm

BUMMER ... They didn't do pear or pecan.  Thanks for posting the link though.  I'm going to save it.

Acacia  2250
Acacia Red  1920
Acacia White Bark  2400
Afara Black  845
Afromosia 1560
Afzelia Doussie  1810
Albarco  1020
Alder Red  590
Almácigo  370
Amboyna  2170
Amburana  3040
Amendoim  1910
Almendro  1855
Andiroba  1220
Angelim Pedra  3040
Angelin  1750
Angelique  1290
Apixuna  1490
Apple 1730
Arariba 2000
Ash Black 850
Ash Blue 2030
Ash Brazilian 1800
Ash Green 1200
Ash Oregon 1160
Ash Pumpkin 990
Ash White 1320
Aspen Bigtooth 420
Aspen Quaking 350
Avodire 1080
Awoura 1480
Azobe 3350

Balau Red 1640
Balsa 100
Bamboo Carbonized 1180
Bamboo Natural 1375
Banak 510
Bangkirai 1798
Basswood American 410
Beech American 1300
Beech European 1300
Beli 1480
Benge 1750
Billian 2680
Billy Webb 2670
Birch Gray 760
Birch Paper 910
Birch Sweet 1470
Birch Yellow 1260
Black African Ironwood 3120
Blackwood African 1720
Blackwood Australian 1100
Bloodwood 2900
Blue Mahoe 1330
Bocote 2200
Bois De Rose 2500
Box Elder 720
Brazilwood 2820
Brushbox 2145
Bubinga 2690
Buckeye Yellow 350
Buckthorn Cascara 1040
Buckthorn Glossy European 1120
Butternut 490

Cambara 941
Cameron 1940
Camphor 726
Canarywood 2000
Capote 795
Cardinal Wood 2900
Catalpa Northern 550
Catalpa Southern 550
Cativo 630
Cedar Alaska 580
Cedar Incense 470
Cedar Lebanon 1060
Cedar Port Orford 720
Cedar Red Eastern 900
Cedar Red Southern 610
Cedar Red Western 350
Cedar Spanish 600
Cedar White Atlantic 350
Cedar White Northern 320
Cerezo 3190
Chechem 2300
Cherry African 1100
Cherry Andean 2820
Cherry Black 950
Cherry Bolivian 3190
Cherry Brazilian 2820
Cherry Caribbean 3100
Cherry Chilean 990
Cherry Patagonian 2820
Cherry Salinas 3190
Chestnut 540
Chestnut American 540
Chestnut Patagonian 1610
Chestnut Southern 2670
Chicha 400
Chinkapin Giant 730
Coffeetree Kentucky 1390
Cohoba 2730
Coigue 990
Copaibo 1470
Cottonwood 300
Cottonwood Black 350
Cottonwood Eastern 430
Courbaril 2350
Crabwood 1220
Cuangare 380
Cuchi 3150
Curupay 3840
Curupixa 1490
Cypress Bald 570
Cypress Australian 1375
Cypress Mexican 460

Degame 1940
Determa 660
Dogwood Flowering 2150
Ebony Black & White 1470
Ebony Brazilian 3692
Ebony Ceylon 3220
Ebony Gaboon 3220
Ebony Macassar 3250
Ebony Mexican 3510
Ekop 1480
Elder Blue 840
Elm American 830
Elm Cedar 1320
Elm Rock 1320
Elm Slippery 860
Elm Winged 1540
Espave 470

Faveira 2895
Fir Balsam 400
Fir California Red 500
Fir Douglas Coast 710
Fir Douglas Interior West 660
Fir Douglas Interior North 600
Fir Douglas Interior South 510
Fir Grand 490
Fir Noble 410
Fir Pacific Silver 430
Fir Subalpine 350
Fir White 480
Freijo 1627
Fustic 2380

Garapa 1800
Gingerwood 1600
Gommier 900
Goncalo Alves 2160
Granadillo 2750
Grapia 1800
Greenheart 2350
Guachapele 1040
Guanacaste 520
Guayabon 1800
Gum Red River 1410
Gum Ribbon 1349
Gum Spotted 2473
Gum Sydney Blue 2025
Gumbo Limbo 370

Hackberry 880
Hemlock Eastern 500
Hemlock Mountain 680
Hemlock Western {540
Hickory 1820
Holly American 1020
Hophornbeam Eastern 1860
Hornbeam American 1780
Hububalli 2750
Hura 550

Ilomba 610
Imbuya 950
IPE 3680
Iroko 1260
Itauba 2900
Ivorywood 1500

Jarrah 1910
Jatoba 2820
Jelutong 390
Jobo 420
Juniper Alligator 1160
Jutahy 4000

Kambala 1260
Kaneelhart 2900
Kapok 281
Kapur 1230
Karri 2040
Katalox 3510
Kauri Ancient 660
Kempas 1710
Keruing 1270
Khaya 830
Knob Thorn 1820
Kurupayra 3840
Kwila {Intsia palembanica} 1712
Lacewood Australian 840
Lacewood South American 840
Lapacho 2800
Larch Western 830
Laurel California 1270
Laurel Mountain 1790
Leadwood 3660
Leche Maria 1120
Lemonwood 1940
Leopard Tree 2740
Lignum Vitae 4500
Limba 490
Locust Black 1700
Locust Honey 1580
Lyptus 1796

Macawood 2750
Machiche 3100
Madrone Pacific 1460
Magnolia 700
Magnolia Southern 1020
Mahogany African 830
Mahogany Andean 3840
Mahogany Mountain 3200
Mahogany Red 2697
Mahogany Royal 400
Mahogany Santos 2200
Mahogany Tiger 3840
Mahogany True 800
Makore 1100
Manbarklak 3480
Mangium 1750
Mango 1020
Mangrove Red 2760
Mani 1400
Manni 1120
Mansonia 940
Manzanita 1460
Maple Bigleaf 850
Maple Black 1180
Maple Brazilian 1500
Maple Hard 1450
Maple Patagonian 1500
Maple Red 950
Maple Silver 700
Maple Sugar 1450
Marblewood 2532
Marishballi 3570
Massarasanduba 3190
Mastate 360
Meranti Dark Red 780
Meranti Light Red 460
Meranti White 1140
Meranti Yellow 770
Merbau 1712
Mersawa 1290
Mesquite 2345
Moabi 3320
Monkey Apple 3570
Mora 2300
Morado 1780
Morototo 915
Mutenye 1650

Nanciton 1700
Nargusta 1855
Narra 2170
Nogal 1700
Nyatoh 1171

Oak Black 1210
Oak Bur 1370
Oak Cherrybark 1480
Oak Chestnut 1130
Oak Cork - The Bark 200
Oak English Brown 1320
Oak Laurel 1210
Oak Northern Red 1290
Oak Overcup 1190
Oak Pin 1510
Oak Post 1360
Oak Southern Red 1060
Oak Swamp Chestnut 1240
Oak Swamp White 1620
Oak Tasmanian 1010
Oak Water 1190
Oak White 1360
Oak Willow 1460
Obeche 430
Okan 2780
Okoume 380
Olivewood Bethlehem Jerusalem 1520
Olivewood Brazilian 3700
Olivewood East African 2740
Opepe 1630
Orosi 3540
Osage Orange 2040
Ovangkol - Amazakoue 900
Ovangkol - Shedua 1650
Padauk African 1725
Padauk Andaman 1630
Padauk Burma 2170
Palm Black 1500
Palm Coconut 1600
Palo Blanco 680
Palo Santo 4000
Para Angelim 1720
Parica 2730
Paulownia 250
Pau Fava 1910
Pau Ferro 2740
Pau Ferro 1780
Pau Marfim 1500
Pau Rosa 1441
Pearwood African 3320
Pearwood European 1020
Pecan 1820
Pernambuco 2820
Peroba De Campos 1600
Peroba Rosa 1730
Persimmon 2300
Pilon 1700
Pine Caribbean 1240
Pine Eastern White 380
Pine Lack 570
Pine Jeffrey 500
Pine Limber 430
Pine Loblolly 690
Pine Lodgepole 480
Pine Longleaf 870
Pine Monterey 750
Pine Ocote 910
Pine Parana 780
Pine Pinyon 860
Pine Pitch 620
Pine Pond 740
Pine Ponderosa  460
Pine Pumpkin 380
Pine Red 560
Pine Sand 730
Pine Shortleaf 690
Pine Spruce 660
Pine Sugar 380
Pine Table Mountain 660
Pine Virginia 740
Pine Western White 420
Pink Ivory Wood 2320
Piquia 1720
Pochote 720
Poplar 430
Poplar Yellow 540
Pradoo 2170
Primavera 660
Purpleheart 1860
Pyinkado 1950

Quina Quina 2200
Quinilla 3190

Ramin 1300
Rata Northern 3150
Rata Southern 3180
Redwood Brazilian 3190
Redwood Old Growth 480
Redwood Second Growth 420
Rengas 1665
Rimu 785
Roble 980
Rosewood African 1980
Rosewood Bolivian 1780
Rosewood Brazilian 2720
Rosewood Caribbean 2300
Rosewood Cocobolo 1136
Rosewood East Indian 3170
Rosewood Honduran 2200
Rosewood Kingwood 1800
Rosewood Patagonian 3840
Rosewood Tiete 3280
Saddlewood 1420
Sajo 425
Sakura 995
Sande 900
Santa Maria 1150
Sapele 1510
Sapote 3570
Sassafras 630
Satine 2900
Satinwood East Indian 2600
Satinwood Jamaican 1820
Sepetir 1410
Serviceberry 1800
Shedua 1650
Shittim 1920
Silverbell Carolina 590
Simarouba 440
Sirari 2800
Snakewood 3800
Sourwood 940
Spruce Black 520
Spruce Engelmann 390
Spruce Red 490
Spruce Sitka 510
Spruce White 480
Sterculia 795
Sucupira 2140
Sumac Staghorn 680
Sweetgum 850
Sycamore American 770

Tallowwood 1933
Tamarack 590
Tamarindo 3000
Tarara Amarilla 2000
Tarara Colorado 2200
Tatajuba 2220
Tauary 1460
Teak 1155
Teak Brazilian  3540
Tigerwood 2160
Timbaúba 2330
Timborana 1570
Tobaccowood 1750
Tomillo 870
Tree Of Heaven 1731
Tualang 1938
Tulipwood Brazilian 2500
Tupelo Black 810
Tupelo Water 880
Turpentine 2967
T'zalam 1400

Verawood 4000
Vermillion 1630

Wallaba 2040
Walnut Black American 1010
Walnut Brazillian 950
Walnut Caribbean 1400
Walnut Patagonian 2800
Walnut Peruvian 1080
Walnut Tiger's Eye 1650
Wamara - Ebony Brazilian 3692
Wamara - Katalox 3510
Wattle Black 1750
Wenge 1630
Willow Black 360
Witch Hazel 1530

Yellowheart 1820
Yew Pacific 1600
Ybyraro 1910
Yvyraro 1730

Zapote 3190
Zebrawood 1658
Ziricote 2200

[Glenn]

Thanks Cap, I think this just about covers it ... 

[Captchee]

Thanks Cap, I think this just about covers it ...  

ya sorry about how long that was . but every time i tried to  compress it , the web sight would scrunch everything together  when i tried to post . so a single line was all i could do ..
 I think the  Janka list should be more complete  though LOL .
 But its not totally complete for all wood species . never the less , I think  that i posted  more then what most folks would have a question about  

As a note to this . We should remember that the Janka scale is about hardness . NOT stability .
 As such you can have a  hard wood , but still have a lack of stability . Thus the wood  may not be suitable for a gun stock .
Also we have to remember that  just because we call something sassafras. It doesn’t mean its the sassafras, maple , pine, walnut………. that’s listed . You need to know the specific , scientific name as there can be different harnesses   within a species .
Pine is a very good example.  For the most part when we say Pine , we think of  the pines we have here in the US  which are for the most part unsuitable for gun stocks  . However there are  members of the pine species which in fact are suitable but not commonly known    

[Glenn]

I wonder how much I'd be cramping any laws if I cut and pasted that information to word to keep as future reference ... ()  If nothing else I'm sure this topic will arise here again and again.

The list however motivated me to do some research last night on native Texas trees.  We supposedly have several of the traditional longrifle woods growing here but I really don't recall ever running across them in the woods, but then again I don't hunt all over east Texas neither.  For example, we have a "sugar maple" but it supposedly never produces the saccarum that the northern versions do, etc.,.

Sassafras is supposedly native here and appears to grow quite large, as does beech.  Mostly in the very northeast of the state though.  No butternut or apple, however.  Black cherry supposedly is "native" here but I've never seen any cherry tree down here whatsoever.

I think I might find that link again and post it on here for whoever lives in the Gulf Coast south and wants to find somebody cutting those specific trees so they can ask them to cut for gun stocks.  It would be nice to find some good sources locally and be able to work with some woodcutters for a piece here and there, especially with cross-country shipping nowadays the way cross-country shipping is.

[Glenn]

Here's the link to native Texas trees if anyone is interested.  The way I see it, these can probably found anywhere along the southern Gulf Coast states:

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/ornamentals/natives/indexcommon.htm

[Captchee]

 i think you could copy the list  without an issue .
surly im not the only one with such a list . in fact if you do a Google  for Janka  scale , you would probably find the same list i posted  plus many, many more .
 The list I posted , I got from  a hardwood flooring distributor  many years ago . So im sure its out there on the net somewhere

[Glenn]

I just hope all this research and discussion has helped to original poster out !!! 

[bob in the woods]

The original post specified a smoothbore, full stock. No mention of gauge, but let's use my 20 as an example. 42 inch barrel, maple stock, Siler lock, Brass butt, trigger  guard, and pipes. Weight is just 6 and 1/2 Lbs.  When you add up the lock, barrel and fittings, the wood isn't counting for much as a percentage.
Also, based on what I've learned from the Fowler book by Grinsdale, I could probably shave down that stock a bit more. How much lighter would you want to go ?

[Glenn]

Here's another wood supplier.  He's knowledgeable of ML gunstocks.  I bought a real nice American walnut pistol stock from him recently and the price was cheap for the beautiful figure it has.

His E-bay seller ID is mphmkt (all lover case).

He's offering these other woods as current (10-02-2011) E-bay auctions for Kentucky-type pistol stocks:

1 - American Chestnut

1 - Elm

Current auciton for walnut:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLACK-WALNUT-muzzle-loader-black-powder-pistol-gunstock-blank-/150668564117?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item23148bd695

This is from the business card he enclosed with the stock he shipped:

mphwood@gmail.com

Chuck Miller: 503-449-2068

I hope this gives you and everyone else an additional source for our kind of wood(s).

[Glenn]

Here is a summary of the various known ML woods discussed in this thread taken from Captchee's list and maybe 1 or 2 others:

Apple 1730

Ash White 1320

Beech American 1300
Beech European 1300

Butternut 490

Cherry Black 950

Chestnut American 540

Elm American 830

Locust Black 1700

Maple Red 950
Maple Silver 700
Maple Sugar 1450

Pearwood European 1020

Pecan 1820

Persimmon 2300

Sassafras 630

Sycamore American 770

Walnut Black American 1010


KNOWN RAMROD WOODS:

Ramin 1300

Hickory 1820

[Belleville]

Thank you all who contributed to this discussion. There was a lot to be learned. Here is how the fusil came out. Talked Ken Netting into building a French trade gun "type D" using a European walnut stock blank. It is based on an original, but not an exact repro, so as the leave Ken some artistic licence. It came out quite well. Ken is a top notch builder. See pics. On the electronic bath scales it came out as 7-1/2 Lbs. (I know not real accurate but the best I got).

[Belleville]

Wow, Sassafras trees must get a whole lot bigger than what I am familiar with where you are from.

Ohio.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The density and thus weight of hardwoods varies enormously within any species.  There are those who won't consider Western Broadleaf Maple for a longrifle stock, yet I have made dozens of them with success, relief and incised carved too.  Being able to handle a piece of wood prior to committing to it, is really helpful.
But as Jim points out, removing metal is far more effective at lightening a rifle than going to a questionably suitable piece of wood.  As a case in point, I am recently finding my Chambers' Virginia rifle with .50 cal barrel a little too much for me to hold nicely, anymore.  So I am thinking of changing out the barrel to a .58 cal or even .62 cal, which is what the rifle was designed for.  That should take away several pounds of steel that I don't seem to be able to control as well as I did when I was 70.  When you take away all of the metal from a longrifle, just holding the wood, there really isn't much weight there.

[Bob Roller]

When I think of  Sassyfrass I think of an old man  and his wife that used to sell
it door to door and it made a good hot drink.That was about 70 years ago.
Bob Roller

[gumboman]

I bought a sassafras board from a sawmiller many years ago. It was 4 inches thick by 8 inches wide and 8 feet long. I was building traditional bows at the time so I built a fiberglass backed long bow with sassafrass laminations. While working it I found it to be very soft and it had a similar texture to elm. It was fibrous and ropey. The bow failed catastrophically after a few shots. I found the wood could not stand up to compression such as bending a bow limb. It is a nice soft wood with open pores, works easily and seems to be flexible. But it is too soft for a gun stock. It dents easily and every little bump it receives will be translated into a ding or dent in the wood.

After working with sassafrass building bows and now working with maple, cherry and walnut for gunstocks, I can say with confidence that I would never consider using sassafrass for a gun stock. It is far too soft compared to other readily available hardwoods. But that is one man's opinion. If one likes a softwood for gunstocks then sassafrass can be considered. It does have a nice aroma.

[Bob Roller]

All I know is that when its cold and wet in the woods, finding a sassafras tree and getting some root to grate up and make tea with over the fire is a good way to get warm!!!  I know........... its supposed to be bad for you and even cause cancer in mice........   Handling lead balls will give you lead poisoning too........

Keep the mice out of it and a million other things
Bob Roller

[WadePatton]

For tea (I don't use it for anything else-but it will burn in an emergency) I snatch the sapling shoots up out of the ground and cut the tops off, chop and boil them whole. Easy peasy no grating , just a little scrubbing and rinsing then boiling--- and pitch the dregs in case they're gritty.