Author Topic: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...  (Read 9499 times)

Offline Tim Crosby

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Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« on: September 12, 2011, 07:27:26 PM »
  There was a thread in Building about Pewter in metal salad plates, is it Pewter, sources for pewter, etc…. I had suggested flea markets but why not tire weights? I tried some this AM. They melt at about the same temp, I can tell no difference in the pouring, they work like Pewter and if you want to age it they age well. The tire weights are a little darker. So why not tire weights?
  Here are a couple of pics. The tire weight tip is on the left in all pics, the last pics show them with some age on them and the tea pot the Pewter came from.  

 Tim C.  

PS: I will continue to use Pewter since I have quite a bit. The best thing about tire weights is they are free.  







« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 12:05:10 AM by Tim Crosby »

BrownBear

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2011, 08:02:32 PM »
I'm guessing you're talking about the  new style stick-on tire weights.  Interesting idea if the temps are compatible.  I wonder how the products will "weather" or age, compared to pewter.

camerl2009

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2011, 10:09:52 PM »
id use the zinc ones the rest are lead/alloys

but melting zinc needs to be done outside and you need to have a good respirator mask zinc fumes will make you vary sick (im speeking from experience here dont ask  ::) ) and can kill you in the worst case

the stick on WW's are near pure lead or tin 

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2011, 12:09:10 AM »
I'm guessing you're talking about the  new style stick-on tire weights.  Interesting idea if the temps are compatible.  I wonder how the products will "weather" or age, compared to pewter.

 No, the old hammer on style. I was going to use some of the stick on to add weight to a chess set I did but I could not get it to melt.
 The tire weights color/age nicely.

  Tim C.

Offline skillman

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2011, 04:58:11 AM »
The old weights are lead or a high lead alloy. In this case you could use any lead you have around.

Steve
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Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2011, 06:29:32 AM »
Brilliant idea, Tim. You should be able to use old typography lead for this, too. It is high in antimony and is pretty hard. Wheel weights used to be about the same alloy, but concerns for the environment have forced changes. Not sure what is in them today. Thank you for sharing a really inspired concept.
Dick 

Offline The Original Griz

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2011, 12:01:55 PM »
Just curious, I am thinking about doing some poured bands and with your post I have a question. Do you think the lead would be too soft and mark/scratch too easy? Isn't the pewter harder and may not mark as easily? I like your idea and thought about trying that but wasn't sure about the hardness.
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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2011, 03:30:16 PM »
 Not very scientific but using the thumbnail test I can mark the lead I use for balls but cannot even scratch one of the pieces of pewter I have here.  Then again I cannot mark the wheel weight either. Here they are finished.

  Tim C.



Offline Down South

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2011, 03:57:47 PM »
Hey Tim:
Sounds like a good supply of "pewter" depending what the alloy is.  I have been using Plumbers Solder.  You can get it in a couple of alloys that are pretty hard.  It melts like lead and turns like butter.  It doesn't scratch to bad. 
Billy

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2011, 09:25:30 PM »
 There was a thread in Building about Pewter in metal salad plates, is it Pewter, sources for pewter, etc…. I had suggested flea markets but why not tire weights? I tried some this AM. They melt at about the same temp, I can tell no difference in the pouring, they work like Pewter and if you want to age it they age well. The tire weights are a little darker. So why not tire weights?
  Here are a couple of pics. The tire weight tip is on the left in all pics, the last pics show them with some age on them and the tea pot the Pewter came from.  

 Tim C.  

PS: I will continue to use Pewter since I have quite a bit. The best thing about tire weights is they are free.  









My primary reason for abandoning 50-50 solder years ago was the lead content was coming home with 50-50 lead-tin dust on me.

So I switched to Pewter or more specifically Pewter alloy solder. It maintains its color better. IE it looks like Pewter when it ages rather than like ww on an old car.

Dan
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Offline B.Barker

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2011, 02:51:01 PM »
Old pewter had real lead in it. That is why you should never eat with old 18th and 19th century pewter spoons and plates. Also a lot of the knife bolsters that you see in books that say they have pewter are actually lead.  I see no harm in using wheel wheights for powder horn tips. Most old wheelweights are lead/tin mix. 

Daryl

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2011, 11:22:35 PM »
The old WW from 1970's and 80's run about Brinel 13 in Canada and about 11 or 12 in the US - apparently. I;'ve seen numbers as low as brinel 9 for US weights. I suspect some stick-ons got into the mix.

The older stick-on WW are pure lead (in Canada)  I do not know what they are made of today, considering Tim says he couldn't melt them.  Cameral says some WW are made of tin today. I've never seen any.  THOSE would be nice to find as I like to put just a tiny bit in the X-ray room wall lead I have as it's so pure as to be difficult to cast.

Tin is also nice to add to WW as it improves the flow so bullets can be cast as slightly reduced temps form pure WW alloys. I've always used plumber's 50/50 bar solder for this purpose.

Linotype is almost twice as hard as WW's having a brinel of 22 for 'new' linotype alloys. Once it's been re-claimed and re-melted a few times, it runs 20 to 21 brinel - still WAY harder than WW. Lyman's #2 alloy, the formula being found in Lyman books, has a brinel of 16 - same as 10:1 tin/lead.  Monotype has a brinel rating of about 24.  High-speed babbit is about the same as monotype and upwards of brinel 28 in some mixes, I am told.

Water quenching normal WW allows can make it as hard as brinel 32, however quenched bullets or other cast items will have varrying hardness depending on exact temp when hitting the water. They take 12 to 24 hours to gain maximum hardness - ie; time harden, then slowly time soften.  If worked, sized, or turned, it must be done immediately as the pieces harden over time. If worked after about 12 hours, it will work-soften back to a normal 12 or 13 brinel. this is basically for sizing. I do not know if turning or filing will destroy the hardness. If so, putting them in the oven at 450degrees for one hour, then quenching them in cold water will re-harden them.

That is what I would do if making horn parts from WW. Hardened in the oven can make them as hard as brinel 34, which is fairly close to what soft copper is rated at. Note, although harder than Linotype, hardened WW alloy is not as brittle.  THAT is important.

Hope this addition to the thread gives you all some ideas.

Do NOT use WW for any eating nor drinking utensiles.

Leatherbelly

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2011, 03:42:43 AM »
   I've been lead to believe that babbitt is far better then both pewter and WW's. Anyone try this? I'm thinking nose caps.

Offline Habu

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2011, 06:10:18 AM »
Leatherbelly, there's about forty-'leven different babbitts, it would depend on which one you had. 

I'd go with pewter from a supplier like TOTW: I want to know what I have, and when I figure out the best way to use it I want to be able to repeat it.


Daryl

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2011, 02:57:23 AM »
We've cast nose caps for half-stock rifles from WW & some high speed babbit we had, with excellent results.  It was the other parts like smaller, thinner horn ends I thought should be hardened.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2011, 04:47:30 AM »
I have cast afew nose caps from WW with about 3 inches of silver solder thrown in the mix. Looks better than plain old WW.   Smylee

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2011, 04:42:21 PM »
Old pewter had real lead in it. That is why you should never eat with old 18th and 19th century pewter spoons and plates. Also a lot of the knife bolsters that you see in books that say they have pewter are actually lead.  I see no harm in using wheel wheights for powder horn tips. Most old wheelweights are lead/tin mix. 

NO not all pewter contained lead going back well before the time frames we deal with. It was know to be toxic for food use.
So while there are lead bearing "pewters" the non-toxic stuff was lead free and it LOOKS DIFFERENT in most cases. This was the second reason I started using the Silvabrite alloy (primary was at the time when I was casting a lot of pewter tips I had young children and did not like bringing lead dust home.). It LOOKED like the metal in original Sharps pewter tips. A firearm with a tip cast of this alloy can be set aside for 1 or 3 years and never handled and the tip maintains its color. Case one of lead or an alloy with high lead levels and it will have a film of black lead oxide on it that comes off on you hand. This shouts LOW QUALITY to me and I don't care for it.
But then I am not into aged guns either...

From:
http://www.basic-antiques.com/metalware-pewter.htm
"The earliest known pewter is that of Imperial Rome. Pewter was taken by its legions to all parts of the empire and samples of it have been found as far east as India and as far west as England. Incidentally, the old Roman formula was lead-loaded, having approximately 71.5 parts tin to 27.8 parts lead. Then came five hundred years of oblivion. By 1047 pewter had re-established itself sufficiently so that the Synod of Rouen ruled that church vessels of pewter could be substituted for those of gold or silver. The first domestic use is the mention of pewter meat caldrons at the coronation of Edward I of England in 1274. By 1437 the pewterers of Montpellier were making dishes and salt cellars of an alloy that adhered to two established formulas. In turn, Limoges, Nuremberg, and other European cities saw the establishment of chartered guilds. By the beginning of the fifteenth century the famous Worshipful Company of Pewterers of the City of London had come into being.

This London guild interests us most, of course, since their trade practices and ways of working were the background of American pewter making. The first formula of the London guild, established by decree of 1474, was as much brass to tin "as it wol receiuve of his nature." Then, the formula shifted to twenty-six pounds of brass to a hundredweight of tin. Later "tin glass," bismuth, was added, first as an adulterant and then as a legalized part of the formula. Next the use of antimony crept in.
Generally lead was added when making spoons and other moulded articles. There is a pretty tale that some of the English and French pewter of the sixteenth, seventeenth, and eighteenth centuries was made with a sizable proportion of silver. Assays of pewter of this era disprove it entirely and establish the fact that the formulas in turn were:

Tin 112 pts. Copper 26 pts.
Tin 100 pts. Copper 4 pts. Antimony 8 pts.
Tin 90 pts. Copper 2 pts. Antimony 8.7 pts.

For spoons and other cast pieces the formula generally was: Tin 95.6 pts. Copper 1.06 pts. Lead 3.64 pts."

With this in mind some of the non-silver bearing solders would be correct as well. But I tried one of these in the past and they did not pour well.
I would have to dig for it more than I care too but I have found pewter formulas with silver added as well.
There are so many different alloys that were referred to as "pewter" that almost anything, including some Babbits could be called "pewter".
Why solders like Silvabrite 100 have a silver content I cannot say. I can only assume it has to do with how the metal flows ? Need a white metal specialist for this.
My point is that I see no point is using WW etc for casting on horns or rifles or knives. There is better material that is perfectly acceptable from the historical standpoint and it LOOKS better.
But its folks are free to use what ever they want...

Dan
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mbokie5

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2011, 05:12:24 PM »
Is there such a thing as zinc ingots?

I found a belt of ingots in my father in laws garage that I am told are zinc.

How can I tell if it is zinc?

Daryl

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2011, 06:18:51 PM »
I suggest you don't melt zinc in your lead pot. The 'boys' at the cast bullet association web site say it will contaminate your lead pot and destroy it's casting forever. I've never tested that, but take their word for this - they shoot nothing buy lead, many are lead shooting bench-rest or scheutzen shooters and have nothing to gain by passing on poor information.

mbokie5

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2011, 06:22:08 PM »
I haven't done any casting as of yet. I have a pot, but it's still in the box unused.

So I shall heed that advice.

I need to find out what that stuff is. It's really heavy. Is there a stamp on zinc ingots or some other identifying mark?

Daryl

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2011, 06:43:01 PM »
'REALLY' heavy does not sound like tin. Compared to equal sized pieces in lead or even antimony, tin is light in weight. I didn't check the SG - but seems to me, zinc is about 1/2 the weight of lead.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 07:18:49 PM by Daryl »

mbokie5

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Re: Tire Weights For Tips, Bands, Inlays, Nose Caps,,etc...
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2011, 08:20:27 PM »
Well I have no idea what it is. but whatever it is, is dense.