Breech plug question

[Herb]

mbokie5, that barrel mark of a big R with the leg making a curve and the 54 stamped in it is a Rice barrel.  That barrel is perfectly breeched with a .500 long plug.  There is no need to pull that plug to check for fit, the fit is perfect.  If you need to pull the plug to fit your flash hole liner, that is another matter.

[Dphariss]

mbokie5, that barrel mark of a big R with the leg making a curve and the 54 stamped in it is a Rice barrel.  That barrel is perfectly breeched with a .500 long plug.  There is no need to pull that plug to check for fit, the fit is perfect.  If you need to pull the plug to fit your flash hole liner, that is another matter.

I don't trust anyone's breech fits. I would pull it and check it by dykem or magic marker staining the breech face then checking to see if it actually seats against a shoulder. By reinstalling and removing the examine any marks of the breech face.

Here is an example of a barrel makers breeching.

Note the fouling ring in front of the threads.

Dan

[Dphariss]

The breech face should show the imprint of the lands and grooves if the barrel is bored and tapped properly and the breech fit right.


And it will look like this when assmbled, no fouling trap.


Fouling trap


You can see back to the threads if you look in the grooves of the barrel.
This is the fouled plug shown in my first post so its possible to see back about .100" past the breech face. The breech face actually protrudes into the bore since the rebate is about bore diameter. The sloppy vent installation was the "builders" fault. His work, here and elsewhere was just "icing on the cake" so to speak.

Dan

[mbokie5]

mbokie5, that barrel mark of a big R with the leg making a curve and the 54 stamped in it is a Rice barrel.  That barrel is perfectly breeched with a .500 long plug.  There is no need to pull that plug to check for fit, the fit is perfect.  If you need to pull the plug to fit your flash hole liner, that is another matter.

I don't trust anyone's breech fits. I would pull it and check it by dykem or magic marker staining the breech face then checking to see if it actually seats against a shoulder. By reinstalling and removing the examine any marks of the breech face.

Here is an example of a barrel makers breeching.

Note the fouling ring in front of the threads.

Dan

For my comfort zone, both Herb and you have nailed it.

I'm too green to know and too green to trust. I would  never trust that I know where to drill for the touchhole or that I wouldn't hit the breech plug. And I couldn't stand it if I knew there were iron filings, barbs or whatnot in there. I need to know for certain sure. That's just my OCD personality.

A picture is worth 10,000 words.

Thanks for that Dan.

I'm guessing that I see the Prussian blue on there in that one pic?

[James]

Having gone through this not long ago, I will throw my 2-cents for consideration. You may have a stock that is pre-inlet for the plug and barrel, but the plug inlet will probably not allow the plug to be dropped in. You are less likely to mess up the stock edges of the barrel inlet if you are just taking the plug in and out the 30 or so times you will until you get the fit right.  Putting the barrel with the plug, in and out that many times is like sending up a flare for Murphy.

[mbokie5]

Having gone through this not long ago, I will throw my 2-cents for consideration. You may have a stock that is pre-inlet for the plug and barrel, but the plug inlet will probably not allow the plug to be dropped in. You are less likely to mess up the stock edges of the barrel inlet if you are just taking the plug in and out the 30 or so times you will until you get the fit right.  Putting the barrel with the plug in and out that many times is like sending up a flare for Murphy.

Well, Murphy was an optimist according to Steinmetz.

But it is a mostly finished Chambers Stock. I'm not expecting I'll have an easy go. But it seems there's a lot of evidence of success using the removal option. No?

[Dphariss]

Having gone through this not long ago, I will throw my 2-cents for consideration. You may have a stock that is pre-inlet for the plug and barrel, but the plug inlet will probably not allow the plug to be dropped in. You are less likely to mess up the stock edges of the barrel inlet if you are just taking the plug in and out the 30 or so times you will until you get the fit right.  Putting the barrel with the plug, in and out that many times is like sending up a flare for Murphy.

I could not get and acceptable fit by inletting the tang separately from the barrel.
But if the inlet is off .003 when done there is a gap.
Inlet the barrel and tang as a unit.
Pantographs are often "off" by as much as .010 or maybe even more so simply enlarging the cut to match the tang is not going to work in many cases.
At least not for me.

Dan

[mbokie5]

Ok, now I need some clarification.

What I was thinking, is that you take the plug out once for this part of the build. Then carve and seat the barrel, without the plug, until the barrel channel is completely carved.

Then you put the plug back on the barrel and then carve the tang seating.

Am I all wet on that?

[Ken G]

That's the way I do it.  Barrel first.  Once the barrel is inlet, then add the breech plug to the barrel and inlet the whole thing as one unit.  
I would do the same even for a hooked breech system.  Glue or solder the barrel and tang together and inlet as one piece.  
Ken

[mbokie5]

That's the way I do it.  Barrel first.  Once the barrel is inlet, then add the breech plug to the barrel and inlet the whole thing as one unit. 
I would do the same even for a hooked breech system.  Glue or solder the barrel and tang together and inlet as one piece. 
Ken

That's more new info.

That's the first I've heard of gluing or soldering the barrel.

It sounds logical, makes sense and I can see benefit. But I did not know that.

How does this affect the anti seize on the threads?

[Dphariss]

That's the way I do it.  Barrel first.  Once the barrel is inlet, then add the breech plug to the barrel and inlet the whole thing as one unit.  
I would do the same even for a hooked breech system.  Glue or solder the barrel and tang together and inlet as one piece.  
Ken

Exactly.
Dan

[Ken G]

Glue or solder only on a hooked breech system like a Hawken would have.  There wouldn't be any glue or solder on the threads at all.
Once the barrel assembly has been inlet a little heat will remove the glue or solder and it will be 2 pieces again.  
Sorry if I muddied up the water.

Ken

P.S.  Guess I should add that on a hooked breech system the breech plug is a seperate piece from the tang so you have 3 pieces.  Wish I had a picture.  

[Dphariss]

That's the way I do it.  Barrel first.  Once the barrel is inlet, then add the breech plug to the barrel and inlet the whole thing as one unit. 
I would do the same even for a hooked breech system.  Glue or solder the barrel and tang together and inlet as one piece. 
Ken

That's more new info.

That's the first I've heard of gluing or soldering the barrel.

It sounds logical, makes sense and I can see benefit. But I did not know that.

How does this affect the anti seize on the threads?

The hooked breech joint on a patent breech is a long way from the threads.
Solder together OFF the barrel then install, then inlet.
Its also possible to lock the breech together with a large headed 10x32 screw threaded into the "hook" on hooked breeches that used a simple breech plug then fill the hole and file flush when the inletting it done.
This screw idea can also be used to lock a breech to cure accuracy problems with the hooked breech can generate.
Dan

[mbokie5]

Glue or solder only on a hooked breech system like a Hawken would have.  Once the barrel assembly has been inlet a little heat will remove the glue or solder and it will be 2 pieces again. 
Sorry if I muddied up the water.

Ken

Well, it's not a problem because it's all muddy water to me. 

This build is an Early Lancaster. the tang is dead level with the top of the barrel. so I'm guessing it does not apply. Or does it?

If it does, I've likely never done this type of soldering.

Or know what glue to use.

[Ken G]

Does not apply to your Lancaster.

Here's a hooked breech system.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=14&subId=143&styleId=515&partNum=PLUG-FH-16-5

[mbokie5]

Does not apply to your Lancaster

Does not apply to your Lancaster

Bonus.

Simpler is better for me. Especially with my greenhorn status.

That picture makes it real plain. Not my plug.

[mbokie5]

Ok, so moving on to actually removing the breech plug.

The Jim Turpin video shows him using a blacksmith made wrench that goes over the top of the tang, then he completes removal with a crescent wrench.

I do not have that blacksmith forged tool. I can get a fair sized crescent wrench and line the tang with some oak shims to prevent damage.

Will that work?

[bgf]

Ok, so moving on to actually removing the breech plug.

The Jim Turpin video shows him using a blacksmith made wrench that goes over the top of the tang, then he completes removal with a crescent wrench.

I do not have that blacksmith forged tool. I can get a fair sized crescent wrench and line the tang with some oak shims to prevent damage.

Will that work?

More than adequate as long as the wrench is good (not loose) and big enough (10 or 12" is what I use).  Just a piece of leather or denim on the plug/tang should do the trick, also, might be simpler than the oak shims. 

[Ken G]

A 15" crescent wrench is more than needed to get the job done.  I'll tell you how I go about removing or installing a breech plug. I'm sure others will chime in with their methods.  If you haven't figured it out yet, there are many ways to get to the same end result.  Everyone works differently based on what tools and mateiral they have at hand.

For the wrench:  Some breech plugs have a tapered bolster  (square part sticking out)and require a wrench with tapered jaws to properly tighten or loosen.  Your Rice barrel does not have that so a normal crescent wrench will work.  Sometimes you will need the leverage of a 15” wrench but a cheater bar will work too.  I use Rice barrels 80% of the time and use a standard crescent wrench all the time.  At one time I did use a thin U shaped piece of brass to pad the wrench jaws on the breech plug but that is totally not necessary.  Just make sure you DO NOT let the end of the wrench jaws extend past the top edge of your tang where it would put pressure on the visible edge of the tang.  In other words, always put the wrench on the breech plug  from the bottom side of the barrel and never put it on all the way.  

Holding the barrel:  I position some .040 brass plates between the barrel and the vise jaws.  Wood will not work for this in most cases because the breech will be on too tight..  The barrel will twist when you put a lot of pressure on it.  Even hard oak will give enough to allow the barrel to twist in the jaws which could result in your first payment to the school of “learning the hard way”.  Do not clamp the barrel where the vise jaws are putting pressure on the breech plug threads so leave about ¾” of barrel sticking out of the vise.
 
Hope that helps.  
Ken

[Dennis Glazener]

Holding the barrel:  I position some .040 brass plates between the barrel and the vise jaws.  Wood will not work for this in most cases because the breech will be on too tight..  The barrel will twist when you put a lot of pressure on it.  Even hard oak will give enough to allow the barrel to twist in the jaws which could result in your first payment to the school of “learning the hard way”.  Do not clamp the barrel where the vise jaws are putting pressure on the breech plug threads so leave about ¾” of barrel sticking out of the vise.
 

Ken gave you good instructions but I want to emphasize that you want a STRONG vise/clamp to hold the barrel. I made mine out of  1.5 " aluminum bars, cut vee to mate barrel flats then line them with brass. Really tighten down on the bolts and fasten the clamp to a heavy table top. Sometimes I have to "persuade" the plug with a large hammer but my crescent wrench is not 15" only about 10". Not that bad if you have a good way to clamp the barrel but a rough job otherwise.
Dennis

[Dphariss]

Ok, so moving on to actually removing the breech plug.

The Jim Turpin video shows him using a blacksmith made wrench that goes over the top of the tang, then he completes removal with a crescent wrench.

I do not have that blacksmith forged tool. I can get a fair sized crescent wrench and line the tang with some oak shims to prevent damage.

Will that work?

Double stick tape some brass sheet, .040 to .062, to the wrench jaws.
Wood is useless for this if the plug is tight.

Dan

[Ken G]

Dang Dan.  Double sided tape is way to simple and easy.  Never crossed my mind.
Thanks for the idea,
Ken

[mbokie5]

Aha!

Well, I have the double sided tape. I'll have to get some brass plate. There's a metal superstore right near my house.

My wrench is under 10", i'll get a longer wrench.

I did just buy a dynamite vice for my basement. I've started thinking that the garage ain't gonna work in the winter. So I'm setting up in the basement.

[Ken G]

Try your 10" wrench first.  If it doesn't break loose with the 10" wrench then add a cheater bar. 

[mbokie5]

Try your 10" wrench first.  If it doesn't break loose with the 10" wrench then add a cheater bar. 

Now I can do that.

Still need to get some flat brass plate.