Schreit RCA#18 alterations

[54Bucks]

 I'm having a Schreit built in the near future and would like to know of any known alterations. Under another thread of mine recently it was mentioned that the trigger guard is not original and that the original was wood. My library is limited yet I've never seen any guns with wooden trigger guards. Also....are there any other surviving signed Schreit's or any guns unsigned thought to be made by Schreit? Judging only from the Schreit pics in Schumway's RCA book, the only obvious change was the minor repair at the butt toe. I would like to know of any alterations and whether or not they are opinion or documented.
                                    Thanks

[rich pierce]

I only know scuttlebut that there may have been 2 phases of restoration/alteration.  In addition to what you've said the original had a stepped wrist however subtle.  I know of no similar rifles even casually associated with Schreit.

[rallen]

Despite, the apparent mauling that RCA18 has gone through, It's still a really cool rifle.  Apparently, there is a photo from the 20's or 30's showing RCA18 prior to a 'restoration'.  It did indeed have a Germanic bone or wood trigger guard.  When it was discovered in England, it was altered to make it more salable and appeal to the public conception of what a Pennsylvania longrifle should be.  It was also refinished.
The only other Schreit relic I'm aware of is a barrel or barrel fragment signed 'JOH SCHREIT 1762' 
Too bad we don't have anything else.  I reallying like his incised carving and engraving.  It would be interesting to see more of his Reading work and any influence he had on other makers, Reading or elsewhere.
Ryan

[flintriflesmith]

The signed barrel that I have seen (actually owned for a time) was complete and interestingly enough is exactly the same length, breech and muzzle dimensions as the one on the rifle. The signature is barely ledgable and the date is the same as on the rifle. Made me wonder the odds of two barrels from the same year surviving or if the date was some sort on commemoration instead of the date of production.

I bought the barrel at the Baltimore Gun Show about 30 years ago and it was on a composite gun with French musket mounts and a curly maple stock. The stocking was done in the style of a musket and the barrel was held in place by the typical Charleville barrel bands. I remember that the front sight was smashed by the front barrel band.

I let the gun go and have lost track of it's present whereabouts. Like so many guns -- I wish I had kept it!
Gary

[James]

I was wondering the same things two nights ago while shrinking my list of which earlier gun I will be trying soon. Thanks for asking here. Jim

[Collector]

I'm hoping that Eric Kettenburg will comment on this topic.  Perhaps he has personally inspected and even partially dismantled The Schreit longrifle.  There has been so much aggrandized speculation and rumor, on this very topic, for so long, that it's become an urban legend, of sorts, in the longrifle community.  Reminds me of the oft-touted, referenced, published and proclaimed 'Bullard' rifle, later determined to be a John Newcomer.  Without a means to verify or cross-reference anything, we are, at best, left with naught but our suspicions and not an iota of fact.

One thing is for sure and that is the original Schreit longrifle is a very, very robust piece.    

[54Bucks]

 Thanks much for the input fellas. I sure would like Eric to step in if he has seen the Schreit!

 Flintriflesmith- do you recall if that barrel also had the same muzzle treatment?

 Looking at RCA#19 I see a few similar elements: size/shape of the box cover, wire pick/feather holder, lower butt molding w/trace or illusion of a step, and in particular the carving under the cheek being in relief

[rich pierce]

Do you really mean RCA 19, the one with the volute behind the cheekpiece?  No feather holder, no carving below cheekpiece.

Regarding the Schreit rifle, this is a gun I'd like to use for inspiration as opposed to using it as a template for a photo-based copy.

[G-Man]

Just one more thought - keep in mind that a wooden or bone guard appearing on the rifle in a mid-20th century photo/auction catalog may not not necessarily mean that it had one originally when built in the 18th century.  Some of these early rifles, particularly ones that ended up in England after the war, underwent mutiple stages of alterations in their period of use - both here and in England - and then multiple restorations as they were sold in this century to collectors. 

GM

[54Bucks]

Do you really mean RCA 19, the one with the volute behind the cheekpiece?  No feather holder, no carving below cheekpiece.

Regarding the Schreit rifle, this is a gun I'd like to use for inspiration as opposed to using it as a template for a photo-based copy.

 Yes RCA#19, I know it's a volute behind the cheek. What I find unusual is relief carving under the cheek. That wire under the cheek holds?? Not suggesting it's by Schreit, probably just something of a shared local element. I'm also using it as a model. I don't know how anyone can build a copy without the original and access to all dimensions and details.

Just one more thought - keep in mind that a wooden or bone guard appearing on the rifle in a mid-20th century photo/auction catalog may not not necessarily mean that it had one originally when built in the 18th century.  Some of these early rifles, particularly ones that ended up in England after the war, underwent mutiple stages of alterations in their period of use - both here and in England - and then multiple restorations as they were sold in this century to collectors. 

GM

I agree G-man, pinning down any alterations of guns made that long ago are nearly impossible. Including those based on comments about a 75 year old picture.

[Stophel]

Another rumor....

I had read that there is an old English auction catalog showing this gun, with it's stepped wrist, and with an ugly Victorian (yes, I know, that's being redundant) swirly scrolly triggerguard.

To find that this gun originally had a wooden triggerguard would be freakin' awesome!  It is not uncommon to see wood guards (and more rarely, horn guards) on German rifles.  It is copying Italian style.     It would be great to know that this feature made it across the Atlantic for use on at least one gun! 

[mr. no gold]

Send me a PM and I will do what I can to put you in touch with someone who knows this gun better than anyone else I know. I have see and held the Schreit, but it was 20 years ago and my memory isn't reliable this far out. He was on the scene when the gun was 'discovered' and has the whole story.
Dick 

[mr. no gold]

For those of you interested in the Joh Schreit 1761 rifle, and for those who were kind enough to get in touch with me about it, here is what I learned on the subject of this gun.
I contacted Walter O'Connor about it, as he was in on the piece somewhat early although he never owned the gun. Here is what he told me:
The gun was placed with Wallis and Wallis Auction House in England, for sale; this was about 1970, or so. Walter said that if he had recognized what it was, he would have gone to England to attend to it. It was photographed in the 'as found' condition, and is shown in that auction catalog. He knows of no other early depiction of the rifle.
He said that it was sold to an English dealer of fine antique arms, who in turn sold it to a US collector. It has gone through seveal hands since.
Walter said that when found the gun had an elaborate, carved horn triggerguard, (shown in the auction catalog photos): he presumes that it was a Victorian change, (1800s), to the piece, as they may have presumed it to be a German Jaeger. He was definite that, in his mind, it was a late alteration to the gun. He knows his gun craft, its history and what it should have looked like, originally. I have never found him to be wrong, yet.
He noted that the gun had been cleaned on both wood, and metal, according to the British  "museum polish" preference.
One of the first owners, (it has had several) had some restoration done; to wit, the toe, and the triggerguard returned to brass. There may have been a few other trifling things perhaps, but nothing injurious.
Walter was emphatic the the step in the wrist has not been changed, which comes as a big
surprise, as that one supposed to have been a  major blunder. His words were: "There are no changes in its architecture."
Today, the gun is in the collection of a top end collector and it will likely stay there. Aside from the photos in the book, "Kentucky Rifles, 1750-1850." I am not sure how to get any more details, but a phone call, or inquiry, to the Winterthur Museum might yield some facts. The book does have some numbers which will be helpful. Surprise! It is a big gun.
So, if you build by current appearance, it won't be to far off of the original appearance.
Hope that this helps put to rest some myths, and off the mark beliefs, (some of which I  have held too), about the gun and that you all show up here with some fine newly built Schreit rifles not too far down the road.
Best-Dick 

[rich pierce]

That's super helpful, my friend!

[James]

Dick, Thank you for this information. Do you feel that the trigger guard shown on it in RCA I would be a reasonable example to go by in recreating this gun? Or could someone point me in the direction of an example that would be appropriate? Thanks, Jim

[mr. no gold]

Jim-I understand that the triggerguard was changed to brass by one of the early US owners and that a later owner had master restorer, Brian LaMaster refashion a better one. Not sure whether this is factual or not.
If it were my project, I would go with the existing guard appearance. If you look at the Christians Spring guns, they are all early, and they have brass guards that typify what a guard would have been in that time period, (1760-11780). My best on your build!
Dick

[Ravenwolf]

That is great news on the Schreit rilfe. That gun has been the driving force, behind my future as a new builder? although I will most likely do a Chambers kit first. I talked to Brian LaMaster yesterday at the Meyerstown, show. I was happy to hear he did work on gun, he was very nice, seeing that I am just starting out. I WANT TO SAY, EVERYONE ON THIS SITE; give YOUR SELF a PAT ON the BACK, you have all been helpful, THANK-YOU, Best to you and yours; Ravenwolf;

[James]

Yet another question: RCA Vol I 2nd ed.  states the bore as .60 cal. while Kentucky Rifles and Pistols pg. 113 gives .52 cal as the bore size. Do you know which is correct? Thanks, Jim

[mr. no gold]

Here are the numbers from the book "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols, 1750-1850", page 113, Reading School Rifles, signed Joh Shreit, 1761.
Length is 58 & 3/4 inches. The octagon, swamped barrel is 43 & 5/16 inches long, .52 caliber rifled. Butt plate 2 & 1/2 inches. Relief and incised carved culy maple stock.
Now you have as much of the story as can be discerned at this moment.
Dick     

[Collector]

This has been a great thread and for me, has put to rest, finally, a topic beset with rumor.  Something, like this belongs, permanently available; perhaps in the ALR Library.

I'd like to add are few more comments:

I was at Dixon's in ~2001 and attended a seminar conducted by John Getz and he talked about holding, examining and measuring the barrel profile of this very piece.  Now, John Getz is a pretty big guy and when he says it's "heavy," I'm inclined to believe him.  His cautionary statements was to builder that their choice of bore diameter will appreciably influence the weight of their piece.   The breech diameter, on this piece is very, very substantial, as I recall.  I call upon Don Getz, to jump in and to please offer us what he knows.

In a telephone conservation with Earl Lanning, in 2007 about a build I was considering, Earl pointed out that we're not building 'copies,' per-se, (not without the original in-hand,) but rather 'interpretations' derived from referenced measurements and photographic profiles and details.  In other words, it's going to be 'YOUR' creation.

I sincerely hope that Don Getz can add to this tread, as well as Eric Kettenburg.  There is and always will be, great interest in this longrifle and we're very fortunate that today's technology has provided us with the ability to access resources and people like member 'mr. no gold,' who has been so generous in sharing what he knows, with all of us. 

Good luck!!   

[James]

My question regarding bore size is because I have a Rice 44" .62 cal. that I think would work well for my creation of the Schreit gun. Due to my inexperience I would like the opinions of those more knowledgeable as to whether this is an acceptable choice. The breech measurement given in RCA is 1 5/16", my barrel is only 1 1/8" at the breech. Thanks, Jim

[Ian Pratt]

Dick - before we consider this case closed, I have to respectfully disagree with your friend's assertion that the rifle's architecture has not been changed - I recently saw the earlier photograph from the auction you speak of, and to my recollection the gun most definitely had a stepped wrist. A couple others who post here also saw the photo, maybe they would care to back me up on this? 

[Jay Close]

I too have seen the auction photo and my recollection is that it had a "step toe" at that time --- but that was many years ago, so my memory might be faulty. However, two  of the photos in the RCA #1 book  (page 87) show chisel cuts behind the rear trigger guard extension. I interpret those cuts  as the remains of an inlet for a longer guard that has largely been cut away. If my interpretation is correct, even assuming an inlet of minimal depth , the toe line has been altered, in my opinion. I think the rifle now has yet another guard on it. Perhaps the newest guard covers or obliterates evidence of the original toe alteration?

[Jim Kibler]

I saw the auction catalog at the same time Ian did and I too recall seeing more of a step to the toe.  I don't remember it clearly,  but I believe it was present, though not extremely dramatic.  The guard on the rifle when shown in the catalog was a percussion era one with a lot of spiral extensions etc.  In looking at the side profile shown in RCA, the toe molding has a dramatic taper.  It seems it would have a little more typical / reasonable shape if it once had a slight step toe as well. 

Jim

[JTR]

Interesting!
So where did you guys see the photo of the catalog cover?
Can someone post it here?
John