Author Topic: Schreit RCA#18 alterations  (Read 31426 times)

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2011, 08:39:05 PM »
The gun has had two brass guards on it while in the US. The existing one was put in place by Brian LaMaster and is as close to the original as you are likely to get. Shumway photographed the gun when the second owner had it, (with the first brass triggerguard). That individual may, or may not, have had the horn guard changed out. We know someone did.
As to the step: the rifle has a stepped wrist though it is not pronounced like some later Lehigh guns seemed to have. If it is shown in the catalog as such then produce the evidence so we can judge. I guess that until that happens, I have no reason not to go with Walter O'Connor's comments, especially since he was there, close to the inception, and he is widely considered an authority on early rifles, and Americana.
Dick   

Offline smart dog

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2011, 09:09:57 PM »
Hi Jay,
I wonder if those "cuts" behind the guard are the borders of a wood inlet used to fill the space.  If so, we don't know how deep the inlet is and cannot use those marks to guess at the height of the step. 

dave
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2011, 04:17:57 AM »
As to the step: the rifle has a stepped wrist though it is not pronounced like some later Lehigh guns seemed to have. If it is shown in the catalog as such then produce the evidence so we can judge. I guess that until that happens, I have no reason not to go with Walter O'Connor's comments, especially since he was there, close to the inception, and he is widely considered an authority on early rifles, and Americana.
Dick   

As to the step:  The catalog that Ian and I mentioned was shown at a recent class held by Wallace Gusler.  Based on this photo and more recent photos, his opinion is that the toe has been altered.  So...  on Wallace's authority, and the fact I saw the catalog myself,  I have no reason to believe anything different. ;D

I will see if I can get a photo or scan of the catalog.  The owner has a bit of an aversion to the Internet, so I don't know if it will happen though.

Jim

Offline Jay Close

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2011, 04:05:33 PM »
If I recall correctly, I saw the auction catalog photo in the upstairs break room of the gunshop at Colonial Williamsburg. I was working summers there in the early 1980's. The other guys in the room, likely Jon Laubach, Dave Wagner and/or George Suiter were discussing the alterations and I think it was Dave who directed my attention to the photos in RCA #1.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2011, 04:25:08 PM »
I'm not sure if there is anything more relevant to add here.  I had a copy of the auction photo a few years ago, like an old xerox copy, and will have to see if I can find it.  The scrolly guard on it at the time was definitely a mid or late 19th century add on, and while the auction photo is not all that great, one can DEFINITELY see that the gun at the time had a slightly more pronounced step than it now has.  Not to get carried away - it looked like it maybe had around 1/8" more material where the rear of the guard would have attached.  Kind of subtle.  I also remember - very distinctly - being permitted to pick up the gun at a show about 8-9 years ago, and the reason I remember it so distinctly is because I think I ruptured a disc.   ;D
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 04:33:07 PM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2011, 03:40:14 AM »
And yet another chapter in the ongoing saga of Joh Schreit and his big 'pachuco,' 1761 rifle. We have all been at each others throats, and on the edges of our seats on this.
I sought out none other than Brian La Master who has generously given the information that is herein contained. Brian is the only person who will, (or can) admit to having laid restorative hands upon the gun and he has permitted his name to be used in this communique. He has also seen the auction photo.
Here is what he had to say:
The present owner put it into Brian's shop to do the following things. The bad toe repair was to be redone. When sent to him the existing repair was done in a light walnut, (could have been done in England). This he did, in appropriate maple. Now, the problem is gone.
The next item was to 'fix' the triggerguard correctly.
This is probably what we have been looking for. The guard Brian dealt with was put in to replace the 'Victorian' highly carved wood piece which was apparently perched on the toe surface. A hard knock would have carried it away, (recall that the first restorer proceeded to replace the wood one with a brass guard).
Brian carefully removed the latter and looked for the tab mortise on the rear and found none. He did see the 'tell tale' chisel marks that show in Shumway. It is his position that these were the index cuts for the original mortise and could have been covered up easily by extending the tab on the first replacement guard, (that did not happen).
He made a new guard based on one from Christians Spring and affixed it to the rifle. He extended the rear tab, and floated it on the surface without cutting a new mortise. It is now quite sturdy and covers the chisel cuts, as well.
Why was the mortise not present? Brian is convinced that the first restorer, (gone now, lovingly remembered, but who should have known better) took the toe down about 1/32 of an inch to take away the mortise, but did not remove enough to take out the chisel cuts, (too much). This reduced the toe molding just enough to produce a detectable change. Brian is adamant that no more was planed off, (he said that 1/8 inch would be too much), since it would have affected the toe line to a radical extent.
Brian commented that the butt plate on the Schreit is almost a double for those on the Christians Spring guns. He wondered if that is where old John got his hardware for the 1761 rifle. In considering that aspect, one has to ask if Schreit didn't influence makers at the Spring instead, since he was making guns almost 15 years earlier than most of the dated pieces, made at the latter location.
He observed that the carving on the Schreit rifle is very close to the incised work on early Bucks County rifles. Again, consider the earlier rifle, (1761). Dare we think that Joh Schreit was heavily involved in the beginnings of what is the Kentucky Rifle? Maybe one of the originators?
He has the dates on his side. And, we don't really know what the very early rifles looked like. There are some good possibilities here for further research.
Finally, Brian noted that much of the 'engraving' on the rifle was done by a gouge and a punch of some kind. He had to make one to complete the engraving on the guard.
Let me take a few more words to publically thank Brian for giving his time, patience, his perceptive eye, and expertise on the subject of this grand rifle, (which may be grander than we realize, or know).
Dick

Online Dave B

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2011, 04:10:15 AM »
Many thanks for getting us this information it lays to rest the question of just how much was removed from the wrist and the extent of what Brian was able to do for the project.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2011, 05:07:41 AM »
  Didn't know anybody felt at one another's throats over this, my comments were not intended to inflame and I don't think anybody else who supported my suggestion intended to cause trouble either. I'm used to hair and meat flying when there's a fight so sometimes in cases like this I have to be told that there's a problem.   
  I build rifles every day and am very interested in restoration work. Have been learning a little at a time, but admittedly I don't yet have anywhere near the knowledge that Brian La Master does to tackle a job like the Schreit rifle. Brian does first rate work, and I applaud him for allowing you to describe the work he did on the gun.
  I truly wish I had the auction photo so I could send you a copy of it. There was plainly more than 1/32 of an inch of wood removed from the step at the wrist, perhaps almost 1/8" in my estimation at the rear guard extension and then tapering back toward the toe. The difference in appearance was quite noticeable.
  I unfortunately do not have a copy of the photo - hopefully somebody else will. I saw the photo just a couple of months ago. I know what I saw. That's all I got.

Offline JTR

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2011, 05:25:24 AM »
I wonder if maybe the angle of the camera to the gun might have made the step look more pronounced in the picture than it actually was?
We have a couple of well respected guys saying the wood removed was slight, yet the picture, according to those that have seen it, seems to tell a different story.
Anyone who has taken pictures knows that cameras can make things look a bit different than they really are!
John 
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Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2011, 05:54:33 AM »
 Good points, but not the case here.

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2011, 06:12:28 AM »
Ian, I tend to jest a lot and if you were put out over my crazy comments then I'm sorry, but not too much, (maybe, not at all). Life is like that. Ask JTR. He knows me, and knows that I think that there isn't a whole lot that is worth getting too serious over. Not at my age, anyway.
I would like to see the photo, and something in my head says that I have seen it a long time ago. Some of the Wallis and Wallis photos, I have seen, overall seem to be pretty good, but that was a long time ago and who knows?
Years and years ago, I recall a wonderful S. Lauck they sold and the photo was good. Not enough detail to suit me, but good enough for it to bring 30K when it sold. That gun was brought to the US. Been here 20 years, or more. Silver wire, carving and all! 
Forgot that Brian also said that the bottom flat, (toe), was quite smooth and not somewhat rough as was the rest of the wood. He felt that was indicative of having been planed down some. My experience with originals has shown that area on most rifles to be somewhat rough, as well. This is not surefire, but usually applies.   
I asked Brian if he was sure that the toe was reduced by only a thirtysecond and he explained that in his opinion, a mortise for a triggerguard tab would be only about that deep and that is all that had been removed. There was no attempt to go deep enough to remove the chisel
marks. So, there you have it. Since Brian was in the belly of the beast, I figure he knows.
You might take the issue up with him next time you see him. He is far more eloquent than I am and can explain it better. Anyway, if you find the photo, please do post it.
Dick

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2011, 07:20:58 AM »
Exactly how much has been removed will probably never be precisely determined.  I would agree that it is a noticable amount.  Further, I'm not sure how wise it is to make an assumption based on a presumed mortice / outline depth.   I have not seen the gun, but based on the photos, my feeling is that the toe changed more than 1/32".  Maybe not 1/8" but more than 1/32".  Just my thoughts...

Jim

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2011, 03:22:28 PM »
If only John Schreit knew how important that 1/32 to 1/8" of wood would be!  I am all for determining what an original actually looked like when built, so that comment is in jest.

The discussion does raise a question, which is, was John Schreit making step toe guns or straight toe guns?  Perhaps that is also important to some of us.  It is my understanding that in Europe at that time some rifle makers made step-toe guns and straight stocked guns, apparently around the same time and at the same place.  Here, I do not know of solid evidence that was the case, though it is supposed that Albrecht made step-toe rifles early at Christians Spring and later at Lititz made a straight toe rifle.

Of course, what we really need is less speculation and about 200 signed, dated 1760's rifles to emerge from their graves.
Andover, Vermont

54Bucks

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2011, 05:27:10 PM »
 First of all I want to thank those who contributed first hand information. And as someone who has already mentioned...... It is nearly impossible to determine specific details about the very old classic guns. Much passed down info. that's taken as accurate simply can't be verified. I would be very carefull when using original as a noun or a verb.  As who can say what did or didn't transpire from the original state until now?

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2011, 05:12:42 PM »
Sometime in the next couple of weeks I hope to scan and post the auction image. Unfortunately the original picture was of a group of overalls of 4 or 5 rifles so the detail will be at best fair.

Gary
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timM

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2011, 07:22:07 PM »
Gary,

Consider taking a photo rather than a scan?  Just a thought on how to possibly come away with a cleaner image?  Either way, thank you for the consideration.  tim

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2011, 01:34:43 AM »
Tim,
I can try both but I have a high resolution MicroTech scanner that also has software that will help off-set the pattern of dots from the original printing. In a catalog that old it may have been printed at 180 DPI and if so there isn't going to be a lot of fine detail to retrieve. Modern art quality is often 600+ DPI.

In a best case sernario I could insert a "ruler/scale" to compare the width of the lower butt molding to some feature that hasn't changed. Time will tell.

Gary
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54Bucks

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2011, 01:54:39 AM »
 I'll look forward to those  photos. Hopefully you will include a timeframe for the auction also.

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations (photos added)
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2011, 06:07:37 AM »
As promised I have scanned the rather poor copy of the picture of the Schreit rifle from the auction catalog. As I suspected the photcopy was high contrast and the original image was low in the number of dots per inch. I suspect it wasn't more than cheap magazine resolution is today.

The photos below start with the entire catalog page with four guns then "zoom in" on the detail of the wrist area. I've also included two images from pictures taken after the first round of "restoration" was done. In evaluating how much of the step was removed I suggest you look hard at the difference in the width of the lower butt moulding at the step from the old picture to the more recent.
Gary

















« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 02:18:18 PM by flintriflesmith »
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2011, 06:28:57 AM »
Your photo series is great Gary.  Thanks for taking the time to put this together.  Really appreciate it.

Jim

Offline heinz

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2011, 01:31:41 PM »
Gary, thanks for taking the time to do that.  THe pictures are very informative as to the visual impact of the modification.
kind regards, heinz

Offline Lucky R A

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2011, 02:16:53 PM »
    Well, I guess that pretty much answers the question of did RCA # 18 Schreit ever have a stepped wrist.   More than half the original molding/step was removed in the various triggerguard replacements etc.   I appreciate your efforts to help us understand the architecture of this grand rifle.   

Ron
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Offline Jay Close

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2011, 04:38:34 PM »
Thanks, Gary. That is much as I recall the photo, but there was some "memory drift" on my part pertaining to the guard in place at the time of auction. I didn't recall it being quite so 19th c. "scrolly".

Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2011, 05:22:49 PM »
To me, it appears that the slight step, was shaved down to remove the rear guard slight inlet to accommodate the new one which appears to be mounted proud on the stock.  I wonder if wood was also removed with the switch from the original horn/wood grip.  This last edit/fix was for sure an improvement, even though it was an adulteration of the original architecture.

Bill
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Offline Swampwalker

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Re: Schreit RCA#18 alterations
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2011, 05:54:29 PM »
I think I see why the step was removed - the replacement guard was not as long, and the rear return of the triggerguard would not fully 'land' on the step.  So the worker simply removed the step to provide an adequate platform for the triggerguard.
Great photo's Gary, thanks!