Author Topic: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??  (Read 13292 times)

Offline Rolf

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African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« on: September 19, 2011, 03:49:47 PM »
I've started looking around for stock blanks for the pair of Le Paige pistols. Some of the nicer Le Paige pistols were made with ebony stocks. It is almost impossible to find large enough ebony now a days, and if you can find it it costs an arm and a leg. I've been thinking of using African black wood instead. Yes, I know it's hard as rock and almost impossible to carve with a gouge. (I've used it for knife handles and bowls). If I try this I plan to use power tool rasps and hand riflers for most of the ruff shaping.

1.Has anyone made a stock out of blackwood?

2.Has anyone bought wood from this firm?
http://www.blackwoodsource.com/products.html

Best regards

Rolf
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 05:56:49 PM by Rolf »

Offline smart dog

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2011, 06:33:28 PM »
Hi Rolf,
Another option would be to use an easier working fruitwood like cherry or pear, or maple and ebonize the finish.  Many old guns that look like they were stocked in ebony, actually are ebonized fruitwood.  However, I certainly have seen photos of LePage and other French made pistols that were ebony.  There are many fairly simple methods for ebonizing wood and the results are really very good.  I am sorry that I cannot help more.  I've never used blackwood or had any experience buying wood from the supplier you listed. 

dave
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keweenaw

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2011, 06:38:52 PM »
Short of using ebony I would choose something easier to work with.  If you want black stocks you could use a dense piece of plain hard maple and ebonize the stocks after you've finished them.  Done carefully one would have to look very closely to tell it wasn't ebony and it would have the bonuses of being stronger and lots cheaper  

Tom

blunderbuss

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2011, 06:59:08 PM »
I've seen original Jaeger ramrods that were blackened to look like ebony but on close examination you could see scrape marks on the rod that reveled it had indeed just been blackened

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2011, 07:08:31 PM »
OK, at the risk of looking stupid........ I know, I know......... How do you  ebonize maple??  Can you do the same with Hickory??
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keweenaw

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2011, 07:31:04 PM »
Tim,

There are a variety of methods one can use.  Mostly I've used an ebonizing dye that some german firm made to use on low grade violin finger boards but I've been unable to find that dye for some years now.  The most common other methods are to use water soluble aniline dyes (probably what the german violin stuff was), to add large amounts of tannic acid to the wood and use an iron compound that will turn black in reaction with the tannic acid or one can use Fiebing's Oil Dye in black, something that is also frequently used on guitar fingerboards.

Tom

Offline woodsrunner

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2011, 07:32:28 PM »
I'll mention this for whatever value it may have to this topic:

Here in the Southern States we have a flowering bush called "Crape Myrtle", (Lagerstroemia indica) that produces the most beautiful Tiger Stripe superior to that seen in the best Maple. Every large bush-small tree of Crape Myrtle that I've seen has this close grain Tiger Stripe. James Levy, one of our Board Members who should post more often than he does, actually "discovered" this characteristic in pieces of Crape Myrtle that I cut for our squirrel camp woodpile! The wood is dense and a rich brown in color, and the Stripe is almost unbelieveable. We gave a few slabs to Charles Wallingford for knife handle material several years ago, and he reported favorabily on it. The bush/small tree doesn't grow very large, and I've seen only a handfull that were large enough to cut out a half stock rifle stock, but there's plenty large enough in diameter to get pistol stock and knife handle material from.

One other thing about Crape Myrtle.......! The leaves are "off the scale" in steroids! Boil two leaves (no more than TWO!) in 3 cups of water and slowly sip on this all day. Do this for 5 or 6 days-NO MORE THAN SIX- and report back on what you're capable of doing ;D  

Offline smart dog

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2011, 08:30:10 PM »
Hi Tim,
An old method was to use the same vinegar and iron stain with which many of us are familiar for longrifles.  I think old-timers would add more iron or evaporate the stain to concentrate it.  You use the vinegar stain in combination with tannic acid.  First paint on the tannic acid and then the vinegar.  If you do a google search for ebonizing wood I think you will find at least 1 site describing this method.  I tried it on scrap cherry a few years ago and it worked very well.  I had some old powdered tannic acid from a chemistry set (very old) but you can buy it from chemical suppliers. The results were jet black.  I think many folks use aniline dyes or leather dyes.  One website suggested that india ink produces the best blackening.

dave
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2011, 10:30:19 PM »
Cherry does turn black with aquafortis.  I use it for powder horn spout plugs.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2011, 11:09:30 PM »
OK, Makes sense. I have used aquafortis & ferric nitrate with cherry and turned it very black.  I wasn't sure if there wasn't maybe some other esoteric technique that I hadn't heard of.....   India ink does work on maple!! Don't ask how I know that!

Hmmm now I have a lot of large old crape myrtle around, besides a couple growing in my yard.............Got me thinking woodsrunner!!

"One other thing about Crape Myrtle.......! The leaves are "off the scale" in steroids! Boil two leaves (no more than TWO!) in 3 cups of water and slowly sip on this all day. Do this for 5 or 6 days-NO MORE THAN SIX- and report back on what you're capable of doing"

You speak from experience??   
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Offline Habu

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2011, 11:51:03 PM »
I've never stocked a ML pistol with it, but I've made grips for a couple of modern pistols (T/C Contender and a Dan Wesson).  Almost completely power tool work though.  It held up to recoil well, but most woods do in those applications. 

I've used blackwood mostly for turnings.  The major problem I've encountered from all suppliers was that of wood not being dry.  Given the way the stuff is processed for the turning market--saw the blocks and wax the ends as soon as possible after sawing the tree--you have to expect that.  If I were going to stock a Le Page in it, I'd definitely keep an eye on moisture content. 

Good luck,
Jim

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2011, 12:51:30 AM »
It seems I recall pear being mentioned as an ideal wood to "ebonize".  I have some pear wood that would work well for a pair of pistols.  If you have any interest in it let me know. 

Jim

Offline Captchee

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2011, 05:49:34 AM »
 i can get ebony  of the right size  from  my local suplier .
 i can tell you though that it will cost you 140.0 for enough to do  one stock .  about 160.00 for  enough for 2 

Offline davec2

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2011, 09:24:29 AM »
I have used aqua fortis on many woods and then treated the same area with gallic acid to turn it jet black.  This penetrates very well even on a surface as dense as horn.  It works even better on wood.  Here it is on two different horn tips I am working on.  This is much more wear resistant than any other dye I have used.  Bill Knight's book on traditional finishes documents the process and the chemistry.  These pictures show one application on horn.  Additional applications make it even blacker.





« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 11:29:37 AM by davec2 »
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Offline Rolf

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2011, 10:02:48 AM »
I got an email form the blackwood supplier. The biggest piece they have is 8"x 8"x4" which is not long enough, so that option is out.
Jim, thank you for your kind offer but I've never liked ebonized wood. It does not look/feel real. It's something with the texture/weight/shine.

It seems I've got two options left, ebony or walnut.
  • The Le Paige ebony pistols fasinate me and I'm very tempted to go for ebony, if I can get two stock blanks for $160 . But inleting parts into ebony makes me a bit nervous. It's not the easiest wood to work with and there is chance of making a mess of it.

  • Walnut is easier to work with, a bit cheaper and some nice Le Paige pistols were stock in it. But I really liked the ebony pistols!

I geuss it boils down to weather or not I dare take the risk of working with ebony. I got to chew on this a while.

Best regards
Rolf

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2011, 10:29:50 AM »
Never fear my friends, research has the answers we seek!

I copied this file quite some time ago. It's one of the best descriptions of the process I have found, and yields a natural, fade resistant finish.

Ebonizing Wood

"Iron staining, or ebonizing, generally uses a reaction between iron oxide and the natural tannins in wood to create a natural- looking black that is actually created in the fibers of the wood rather than a stain sitting on top. This is why it is so durable. It is integral, not superficial. I have also found it to be very light-fast."

Rolf, I would consider trying this out on a scrap of maple and walnut to see what the results are. You might be surprised and pleased!

Best regards,
Albert “El Matamoro” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles
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ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

Offline woodsrunner

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2011, 02:26:37 PM »
No, Dr. Tim, I don't speak from experience on this one! Don't need it! Actually, I'm an "unofficial guinea pig" for the Mayo Clinic on a new proceedure of pellet insertion in your backside to make a YOUNG MAN out of an OLD ONE  ;). IT WORKS! I went from 72 to 49.3-51.6 years old (according to Mayo) in less than 48 hours! The proceedure is new and approved for use, but a few wrinkles are being worked out on various things, and I happened to fit in a certain nitch weight/healthwise to get me in the door! I'M YOUNG AGAIN  ;) ;) :o ::) :-X :-X

The rather dangerous side effects of Crape Myrtle leaves is little known outside the botanical community, and not really well known here either. I would stay away from it. I think the "threshhold" of good/bad side effects is rather narrow.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2011, 03:44:49 PM »
Rolf,

If European walnut is an option, I would find some good tight grained, marbled or burled material and use it.  It will work well and properly finished should look great.  It shouldn't be hard to find some high grade pieces large enough for pistol stocks.  I don't ever recall handling an ebony stocked gun, but from what I see in photos, I don't care much for the look.  In my view the color is too monotone, uniform and lacks much interest.  That said, if you chose ebony, I think you will find a way to work the material.  If the original makers managed to get it done I'll bet you can too.

Jim
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 03:46:32 PM by Jim Kibler »

keweenaw

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2011, 04:31:04 PM »
When one well known gunmaker was restocking a pair of English holster pistols I did a lot of the leg work at trying to find two matching English walnut shotgun blanks that had similar color and proper grain flow.  (We wanted them quarter sawn with a grain flow that followed the curve of the wrist. ) I sent a pattern out to Calico Hardwoods in California, probably the largest US supplier of English walnut gunstock blanks.  The manager was very cooperative and went through 300 blanks trying to find two that would match etc. without success.  I felt so bad about taking up so much of his time that I bought a quite nice rifle blank  to use on another project.  We ended up buying an oversized Turkish rifle blank from HunterBid that we could cut two blanks out of the rear section. 

The hard part about what Jim suggests is deciding how close the two shotgun blanks would have to match to be acceptable.  It's easy to decide on this in person if you are going through the blanks, hard if someone else is doing the looking.  Good figured English shotgun blanks will be a minimum of about $150 ea. with fairly small amounts of mineral streaking.  On the other hand if you just want a nearly plain English walnut Wayne Dunlap can fix you up for considerably less.  Since Wayne cuts a very limited number of English walnut trees he usually has pieces together from the same tree.

Tom

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2011, 04:42:29 PM »
If you decide on European Walnut, Ron Scott would be a place to check for stock wood.  Not too long ago I remember him selling pieces large enough for a pair of pistols.  These seemed to be pretty good with some nice figure.

Offline Captchee

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2011, 05:16:44 PM »
From what I have been told , the reason you often don’t see large cuts of ebony is that  ebony isn’t consistently black throughout the board . As such they cut out the darkest sections  and then sell  those sections  priced accordingly .
 Back in march when I last went down to  high desert they had GABOON EBONY and MACASSAR EBONY in 8/4 x 12 inches wide by 12 ft long . They even had a couple 15ft boards of 8/4 .

 The last couple years  I have worked a lot with both Gaboon  and  Macassar Ebony I can tell you that it  will carve . But you have to have absolutely  nat butt  sharp chisels.  It also will take the edge off  very quick , so you have to sharpen constantly or  you will start chipping .
Myself I found scraping and  the use of files , to be the answer .
  Here is one of the Shotgun  butt plates I did a couple years ago from Gaboon . As you can see , prior to oiling the color varies. But once oiled  is blackens right up .
  Know that the color will still show but you have to look very close to see it
 ebony also in and of itself , is very oily  so you have to plan your finish accourdingly
prior to oil


after oil and  in the process of back ground removerl  of engraving


 here is another Buttplate that i did in  Macassar .  this piece had even more browns in it  . I have been told that it also blacked up alot more . but it had not at the time i finished the gun .
after oil but prior to background removel  on the engraving


While chatting with Jerry Huddleston on the subject of ebonizing . He told me that he  vacuum packs as part of  his ebonizing . What he told me was that this produces a very deep dark and well penetrated color that’s not just a surface  treatment  . But I have yet to try this process
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 05:22:25 PM by Captchee »

Offline JTR

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2011, 08:45:21 PM »
I followed this procedure, and it works really well. I also bought the products from the web-site listed at the bottom of the page.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/ebonizing_wood

The only thing is Rolf, if you have your mind more or less made up to use Ebony, at some point you'll make an ebony stocked gun, whether it's this time or not! So you might as well make it now, and get the urge out of the way!

A cased set of LaPage's in ebony would be absolutely stunning!!!  ;D

John

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Daryl

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2011, 01:50:06 AM »
I think Taylor got the piece for his wheellock from the hardwood store here in town.  Perhaps some 'finger walking"(keeboard) through googling hardwood stores will help.

woodburner

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2011, 05:54:07 AM »
Rolf, as mentioned, the moisture content of the exotics is very important.
I made a turned "box" with an ebony top that checked...not good.
I have alot of exotics and now would use them only after spending a few
months in a sealed paper bag which will allow the moisture content to
stabilize(wax removed).  I have not tried ebonizing but the contributers
have...I have seen many pieces that used iron and vinegar or india ink, a
wood with little grain like pear would work.  Good luck!  woodburner

Daryl

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Re: African blackwood for Le Paige pistolstocks??
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2011, 06:08:54 PM »
Come to think of it, very smooth purple heart might also be a good wood due to very tight fine grain structure. In the 2 bows I made from it, I found it to be easily worked with sharp tools. The bows failed- design faults - next one wouldn't have - maybe.