I need to make a tumbler

[bama]

I have a restoration in the shop on a percussion double gun with back action locks. The left-hand lock's cock shaft has been broken flush with the face of the lock plate. I either need to make a new tumbler or have the shaft welded up. Since I am not much of a welder I would make a new tumbler. I have some cold roll round stock that I could use but I don't know if this can be hardened properly. Can anyone tell me if it can be hardened. Or what would be a better material to use.

[rich pierce]

That would be great.  Just case harden it when done.  That's how originals were done.  Otherwise you could use various tool steels and through-harden it then temper it.

[Stophel]

I had some blank tumblers made up for me by the local machine shop (at the cost of one arm, and one leg).  Basically 1" wheels with a 3/8" axle on one side, and an eighth inch axle on the other side (if I recall correctly).  Made out of mild steel.  I have so far used only one.  Case hardened it.  Not exactly seen heavy use, but it does work quite fine. 

[wmaser]

I use the leaf springs steel from an old truck. Very hard even when annealed but still workable , as far as filing and drilling are concerned. Be very careful tapping the shaft of your finished tumbler for the cock screw or you'll break your tap. Quench in water makes it hard and brittle as glass, and will need tempering. I have never had a problem with any of mine. good luck.

[rich pierce]

Man those must be some thick springs as most tumblers are at least 5/8" thick from axle to stud for the cock. 

[dannybb55]

he could be heating up an end and upsetting them first.

[wmaser]

The springs Im using come from a 10 ton dump. The main leaf at the center bolt hole measures a full 1 1/8" in thickness. you don't even need one that thick if you align your tumbler with the axis, or shafts, lengthwise in the leaf section. The tumbler cam and notched section can be rotated to fit nicely in the sawcut section. I actually use a piece about 3" long so that it,s easier to work on the lathe, the excess lengths at the ends of the tumbler shafts to be cut off upon completion.

[LynnC]

Bama,

I would anneal the tumbler and thru drill/ream to shaft diameter.  Make a new shaft mirroring the good tumbler for a light press fit so you can adjust your square to desired orientation.  Bevel the inboard tumbler end and the inboard hole in the tumbler and weld being careful not to ruin the inboard axle.  I suppose you could bevel both sides of the tumbler, weld and machine. True up in the lathe and re case harden.  It can also be brazed and the tumbler re-hardened, Kasinit on the shaft.  If the gun is to see little if any use it can be silver brazed and left as is.  I have done the braze and silver braze methods with success and that is what I'd do.  I can weld but not that delicately    Good Luck...................Lynn

[LynnC]

Oh and if the tumbler is wrought iron, welding may be difficult and brazing easier...........Lynn

[Dphariss]

Oh and if the tumbler is wrought iron, welding may be difficult and brazing easier...........Lynn

Right.
If its low quality pre-Civil-War era material I would not weld it unless a skilled gas welder.


Dan

[rsells]

I think Doc at Upper Missouri Trading Company carried blank tumblers at one time.  I haven't asked that question lately, but you might check.  His info is in the back of Muzzle Blast or Muzzleloader (not sure which one).  He advertises in the section dealing with powder.
                                                  Roger Sells

[kutter]

I've done several cartridge hammer gun repairs by replacing the shaft of the tumbler with a new one and brazing into place as already described above.
Can be case hardenend w/ casenite w/o damaging the brazed joint.

I have one to repair right now on a single shot 50cal underlever stalking rifle made by Novotny (sp) of Prague.
Someone had already tried repairing it by welding onto the stub of the broken shaft w/ poor results.

FWIW, the rifle also has a sliding wooden 'patch' box on the stock. Just couldn't let go of the past I guess!

[Birddog6]

Jim,

  If the tumbler is anywhere close to a lock from Chambers, L&R or a Davis, maybe you can get a rough cast one from them before it is hardened, reshape it & then harden it & make one ? 

Keith Lisle

[bama]

Thanks for the info guys. This double is probably from the 1850 time frame and the ownernintends to shoot it a good bit. The tubes are in good shape, they had surface pitting but nothing really deep. The ends of the tubes are a little thin but still usable. I have replaced the nipples with .005 over nipples and everything at the breech looked good. The stock of this gun was badly damaged by the postal service during the shipping from seller to buyer and they also broke the lock at the same time. Anyway I have all the wood work complete and the tubes in good working order now to get the tumbler fixed and it will be good to go.

Thanks again, I will try making the tumbler from the cold rolled round stock and see how that goes.

[bama]

Keith I have bought several original back action locks trying to find a tumbler that I could use but I am amazed at how many different designs there are for the internals for this type of lock. I have 4 pairs of locks in varying degrees of disrepair and they all have different internal designs. The locks on the double are of much better quality than the others I picked up. These locks in original condition are not very expensive and can be picked up for a few bucks but I need to get this project done so I will stop looking for a replacement tumbler and go ahead and make it.

[bgf]

Just a random thought.  If you want some "harder(higher carbon)" stock than the cold-rolled bar stock, you can buy bolts in various sizes/grades.  The head of a larger sized bolt might be just about the right thickness for a tumbler, and it would be pretty easy to round it off by chucking up the bolt (threaded) part.  You could also use the threaded section as a "handle" until you are ready to lop it off, might even make it easier to file in the tumbler notches.

[JDK]

Just a random thought.  If you want some "harder(higher carbon)" stock than the cold-rolled bar stock, you can buy bolts in various sizes/grades.  The head of a larger sized bolt might be just about the right thickness for a tumbler, and it would be pretty easy to round it off by chucking up the bolt (threaded) part.  You could also use the threaded section as a "handle" until you are ready to lop it off, might even make it easier to file in the tumbler notches.

....and the head of the bolt doesn't need to be full thickness as you can get the tumbler shaft out of the bolt shaft.....if you want to go that route.  Am I stating the obvious again?  Good luck.  J.D.K.

[bama]

I did not think about using a bolt but that is a good suggestion and I may go that route. Thanks to all.

[Birddog6]

I will try to get out in my stuff & did today.  I bought all of Norton Gatz  gunbuilding tools, machinery, rifling machine, forge, patterns, etc. There are a couple of hand forged hammers & triggers & seems to me like there was a couple of tumblers in one of those boxes...  I will see if I can find them but may take a day or so, as it is all still in boxes & drawers unsorted, just gathered & brought home.

Keith Lisle

[Dphariss]

I did not think about using a bolt but that is a good suggestion and I may go that route. Thanks to all.

The bolt (assuming Grade will work easier if annealed and will need to be oil quenched and tempered.

Dan

[LynnC]

Just a side note - I've made a few tumblers and they are time consuming.

A repaired tumbler will take far less time and last like a new one IMHO.

But making a new one is good experience.  Dixie gun works may still sell blank tumblers......Lynn

[bob]

I turn tumblers on a lathe. I usually  make the cock side shaft .320 " and the stub  that goes into the bridle .160 dia. I thread an 8-32 hole for the cock screw. If that does not fit, what do you need? I could make one for you at no charge.
You would have to file the shaft to fit the sq. hole in the cock which is usually .250 sq. Contact me off the list.
Bob

[Daryl]

I did not think about using a bolt but that is a good suggestion and I may go that route. Thanks to all.

The bolt (assuming Grade will work easier if annealed and will need to be oil quenched and tempered.

Dan

Dan - what 'temp/colour' would you temper a tumbler too after hardening?