Sights on doubles

[Habu]

I'm trying to take advantage of some forced time away from the bench by getting several projects planned.  One that I'm contemplating is setting up a SxS double for dedicated use with round ball. 

This time I'd like to go a step further and put on decent sights.  Does anyone have suggestions on how to fit a rifle style rear sight to a double?  I know I can attach an express sight to the rib with screws, but didn't know if there were other options I should consider.

Thanks!

[Daryl]

You can make a raised rib and dovetail it in.  I'd not screw a sight on as that prevents windage adjustment.

[Habu]

Dovetail the sight into the raised rib, then attach the raised rib to the shotgun rib with screws? 

[camerl2009]

i could see a dovetail right across the both barrels a piece of steel stock fited to the dovetail then you put the sight on this its just like a sight base but it go's into both barrels

a rib with a dovetail is good to

but there still is the barrel regulation to worry about

[Habu]

A dovetail across both barrels doesn't work out well with a double shotgun: it would sit the height too high.  And in truth, I'm not sure there is enough steel there for me to cut the dovetail (but a better builder might be able too). 

Regulation isn't really a problem in this application.  I'm planning a bear gun.  A gun that will put both barrels into 3" at 25 yards is adequate, and most doubles will do that with the right load.    Any needed regulation can be handled by filing the muzzles. 

A rear sight really isn't necessary, it just makes the gun more fun to shoot.

[Daryl]

Habu - I assumed you meant a rifled gun, not a smoothbore. If rifled, a bit more care and you'd have a wonderful big game hunting rifle - double rifle - best for that purpose until the repeating guns replaced them near the end of the 19th century. Of course, that replacement was only due to cost of a fine double, not game or hunting worthiness.  Today, many still prefer the double rifle.

In the early to mid 1800's, many preferred the double ML rifle as well.  I've a book with an old 'picture' of some 'hunters' at their cabin, one of whom has a double ML rifle with a sword bayonette attached, of all things.  Of course, the sights are attached to the centre rib as they should be.  The sight base (quarter or shorter) rib could be attached with screws, of course, but much care is needed when moving the rear sight in it's dovetail. The screws can easily shear off at the rib. I know this for fact.

For a smoothbored 'camp or close range double big game gun, one of the Navy Arms 10 or 12 bore 'magnum' muzzleloading shotguns, if reduced to 24" or 26" in the barrels would make a terrific short range big game smoothrifle.  Many or most of the modern-made ML double barreled shotguns do not have enough drop in the stock to do this.

To shoot strong with both shot and ball, Forsyth recommended 30" of barrel. For ball alone, 22" to 26" was all that was needed. The large bore seemingly gave good velocity to the ball with normal powder charges and didn't need a long tube to accomplish this task.  We see this in bore sizes as small as .58 in Lyman's old book. Note the charge weight per fps from 24" to 32".  Not much difference and with some loads, the shorter tube was faster. With today's 2F GOEX powder, my 24" .58 makes 1,308fps compared to 1,077fps for the same charge in 1970 using the GOX of the day.

Keep us posted on this build, Habu.

[Habu]

Build?  "Build" suggests I have an actual plan in mind!    I was sorta figuring on just scrounging up a couple of parts guns and piecing together a double, maybe with new barrels. . . .

[Daryl]

Cool - keep us abridged.

[camerl2009]

i still say dealing with a charging bear its best to have quick follow up shots a muzzleloader would not be my first choice

put a bayonet on it maybe   most of my guns i take into northern ont have bayonets just in case i happen to startle a bruin  black bear or a cougar heaven forbid i ever have to use it

now a .69 round ball or bigger should stop them quick with the right FPS but i still would want more then 2 shots

maybe a 4 barrel swivel gun or a great big volloy gun   

[Captchee]

 Myself  I would agree with Daryl
 Place the  rear sight on the center rib .
 If to dove tail this into another rib and then screw it down , that would depend on  how the  main rib is set and what type of rib it originally used 

 I would also agree that for a camp gun  that would be used at very close range ,  a rear sight wouldn’t  really  be needed  past some  shaping of the tang to give a rear reference.

 But again as Daryl mentioned . If you spend alittle more time  on the piece  and make a double rifle , now your in a different ball game .
 In which case I would use a double flip up , bladed  rear sight  dove tailed  to a smaller section of rib so that both blades would  be capable of moving  independently for  dedicated barrel  windage. 
But  you would end up with  something along the lines of an express type rear sight  . Z-hat  makes such sights  and I can attest  to the fact that they are very nice and work well.
 http://www.z-hat.com/express_sights.htm


As was mentioned , double rifles  were  very prevalent  even well into the cartridge evolution.  All we have to do is look to the African safari even in the  early part of the 20th century.. Even today there are still a number of makers  out there  and the cost is till  high .
 Yes a fine  well made double rifle was expensive .  However a lot of work goes into these guns . On better quality guns great care was taken to  match set the barrels .
 I once saw a  double rifle made by Alex Henry that had   the  rifling  counter rotating . IE the left barrel had right hand twist while the right barrel had left hand twist .
Makers Like Purdey  went so deep into to this barrel matching and regulating that  many of their higher grade  rifles  carried a rear sight with only a single blade.

[bob in the woods]

Just for the record, my gun of choice for black bear hunting is my Edward Marshal .62 cal flintlock.
Or, at times, my 10 bore N.E. Fowling piece.  I have not been charged, but I have been stalked by a black bear....I saw himout of the corner of my eye while sitting with my back to a tree. I have complete faith in my guns. The locks are well tuned, and are very reliable. The bear I harvested last Friday will attest to it !

[Dphariss]

No quality double rifle requires two sets of sights. The extra leaves on the Express sights found on these rifles are to increase the elevation for longer distances.
They are "regulated".
While there have always been low end guns that were not properly regulated the good ones are.
The difficulty is that the BP doubles, be they cartridge or ML need a powder similar to the powder they were regulated with. This was generally impossible with Dupont/GOI/GOEX. While I no longer have such a rifle I think the 450 BPE I used to have would likely regulate perfectly with Swiss. And honestly it was good enough to hunt with the 100-150 yards even with Goex.

The barrels however must have about the correct taper or be ribbed to give the proper angles the allow both barrels to shoot with in an inch or so of each other at say 50 yards, they should not "cross" at any distance ot be too far apart as this will increase with distance. They should shoot parallel to each other at any distance. This done by moving the bores at the muzzle closer or farther apart to correct the horizontal spread and perhaps up and down to get the elevation right.
Builders of double rifles know the approximate layout for a given caliber rifle and thus have a starting point. I suspect once the proper layout for a given rifle weight/caliber is known regulation is not that difficult.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Just for the record, my gun of choice for black bear hunting is my Edward Marshal .62 cal flintlock.
Or, at times, my 10 bore N.E. Fowling piece.  I have not been charged, but I have been stalked by a black bear....I saw himout of the corner of my eye while sitting with my back to a tree. I have complete faith in my guns. The locks are well tuned, and are very reliable. The bear I harvested last Friday will attest to it !

I have had two friends who had bears come toward them after the shot. Both were armed with BLs.
One a shortened double 12 and he hit the bear, a big black, just behind the shoulders and it came toward him and was only about 10-15 ft away when he came out of recoil and shot him again with the second barrel.
The other also involved a 12 ga slug and in this case the son shot it at a matter of feet with a 45-70.
The first may not have been a real charge. The second, from the accounts I was given was. Both could have started as simple reflex on the bears part. But having a bear at 10 ft or less, not good.

Dan

[bob in the woods]

Well,  Dan. I certainly am glad that you are telling this AFTER I shot my bear, rather than before!
Honestly, I have never had anything I shot with the 10 bore do much of anything after being hit.
.735 ball ahead of 140 g FFg seems to deflate them.   Still, you have given me something to think about.

[Habu]

There's a big difference between a gun for bear hunting and a gun for hunting bears (where the bear is hunting you).  For the first, a double rifle would be great; for the second, a short shotgun like I have in mind is probably a better choice. 

My Bess worked well for bear hunting (aside from the fur burnt by the muzzle blast).  Worked well on buffalo too.  A similar load in a double seems like it would be even better.

If I'm in bear country, and there are bears around, they always show up.  I've had at least half-a-dozen encounters within Dan's "danger range" of 10', been stalked in brush so thick you couldn't see 5' (I still think she was just curious), and I've killed one bear in camp, but I don't think I've ever been "charged" even as a bluff.  They are just "there."

I want a rear sight on the gun for two reasons.  First, I'm more likely to practice with a gun with a rear sight, increasing familiarity and confidence.  And second, I'm a lousy shotgunner, and I know that if there's a rear sight on a gun I'm more likely to aim--even quickly--than to just blast when the gun is pointed at hair. 

[Naphtali]

I'm trying to take advantage of some forced time away from the bench by getting several projects planned.  One that I'm contemplating is setting up a SxS double for dedicated use with round ball. 

This time I'd like to go a step further and put on decent sights.  Does anyone have suggestions on how to fit a rifle style rear sight to a double?  I know I can attach an express sight to the rib with screws, but didn't know if there were other options I should consider.

Thanks!

Initial shooting of my Pedersoli Safari showed surprising congruence of bullet impact at 85 yards although the rear sight was slightly loose within its base. When I had work done on the rifle - length of pull shortened, recoil pad installed, trigger job on one lock - I had the rear (middle) sight removed and a Brockman wing-protected adjustable aperture sight installed via D&T on top rib at breeches.

Smithing has been a total sucess.

Hope this helps.

[Acer Saccharum]

I've seen SXS rifles with TWO sets of sights, one set per barrel. I think in a panic, you don't want to be confused about witch front sight (or rear) you should be using.

Dan, to regulate, do the barrels need to be swamped, and then bent so the last part of the bbls the bores are parallel? Sounds like tricky bidness.

[Leatherbelly]

i still say dealing with a charging bear its best to have quick follow up shots a muzzleloader would not be my first choice

put a bayonet on it maybe   most of my guns i take into northern ont have bayonets just in case i happen to startle a bruin  black bear or a cougar heaven forbid i ever have to use it

now a .69 round ball or bigger should stop them quick with the right FPS but i still would want more then 2 shots

maybe a 4 barrel swivel gun or a great big volloy gun  

 Where would you aim at a charging bear on the full run? I like the idea of 2 shots but you still need to know where to aim at a bear on the full run towards you.If you don't know, you'll be surprised.Or mauled and eaten.LOL!!!(hint:most people shoot high)
  I don't have enough balls to stand one down with a sword or a bayonet! You'd get just as lucky with a rock. Sorry,I use a big suppository gun for bear suppression...and it works well!

  Oh,one dove tailed sight (or two) and regulate the barrels.
  

[camerl2009]

i still say dealing with a charging bear its best to have quick follow up shots a muzzleloader would not be my first choice

put a bayonet on it maybe   most of my guns i take into northern ont have bayonets just in case i happen to startle a bruin  black bear or a cougar heaven forbid i ever have to use it

now a .69 round ball or bigger should stop them quick with the right FPS but i still would want more then 2 shots

maybe a 4 barrel swivel gun or a great big volloy gun   

 Where would you aim at a charging bear on the full run? I like the idea of 2 shots but you still need to know where to aim at a bear on the full run towards you.If you don't know, you'll be surprised.Or mauled and eaten.LOL!!!
  I don't have enough balls to stand one down with a sword or a bayonet! You'd get just as lucky with a rock. Sorry,I use a big suppository gun for bear suppression...and it works well!
 

head to stop a charging animal you need to shut down the brain the bayonet is for when he gets in range of it that would go into the chest of a bear and the bayonet make's for a nice thing to hold the rifle when you doing something just stick it into the ground

considering im the size of average black bear i dont worry about them coming near me most just run there not much to worry about but you get the big bruin now and then thats a little more aggressive

now if im any where thats brown bear or griz country id put down the muzzleloader and pick up something like a 12ga loaded with round ball slugs

[Leatherbelly]

   Aim at his head...and you'll be dead!

[Dphariss]

I've seen SXS rifles with TWO sets of sights, one set per barrel. I think in a panic, you don't want to be confused about witch front sight (or rear) you should be using.

Dan, to regulate, do the barrels need to be swamped, and then bent so the last part of the bbls the bores are parallel? Sounds like tricky bidness.

The English doubles were/are brazed at the breech as I have read and then the ribs etc are soft soldered. Shot, solder melted then adjusted, shot again etc until regulated. But this is just what I have read.
I am not speaking here of SXS doubles as made in Bedford Co. etc. but rifles such as those made by Manton or other English makers.
A friend of mine has made a few doubles ala Bedford and had pretty good luck with straight barrels IIRC.
He set the up so the bores were paralell. But I would have to talk to him about it.
But we have the remember that these rifles were very heavy in relation to the ball weight. So recoil s less a factory than with something like 9-10 pound 16  bore rifle for example.
Double rifles are not set up like double shotguns. Double shotguns tend to cause the balls to cross since they are designed to put the shot charge of ether barrel to point of aim at about 40 yrds. They are also light and make quite a bit of recoil which can cause the left barrel to shoot left and right barrel to shoot right. It is my understanding that this was overcome in shotguns used for ball by filing the muzzle so that the barrel was a perhaps .010 to .030 shorter at the outside. It is said that they were shot and tested and barrels filed to change the point of impact slightly so that the guns shot more or less parallel. This muzzle treatment is found on some old ML shotguns.

Dan

[Habu]

They are also light and make quite a bit of recoil which can cause the left barrel to shoot left and right barrel to shoot right. It is my understanding that this was overcome in shotguns used for ball by filing the muzzle so that the barrel was a perhaps .010 to .030 shorter at the outside. It is said that they were shot and tested and barrels filed to change the point of impact slightly so that the guns shot more or less parallel. This muzzle treatment is found on some old ML shotguns.

Dan

That's pretty much what I have in mind.  Work up a load for the gun, then file the muzzles to bring the point of impact of both barrels into the same group. 

[JCKelly]

Here's how it was done in Michigan (maybe New York?) about 1850. Well, this is really a "triple" but the top two barrels are rifled. From Michigan Gunsmiths, 2nd edition, in process:

[doug]

    I would suggest attaching a cardboard or thin sheet metal sight to the rib and shooting the gun to see just how well or poorly regulated it is at present.  I have tried patched roundball in one or two double shotguns and had the bullets striking 4 - 6" apart at 25 yards as best I recall

cheers Doug

[camerl2009]

Here's how it was done in Michigan (maybe New York?) about 1850. Well, this is really a "triple" but the top two barrels are rifled. From Michigan Gunsmiths, 2nd edition, in process:

a vary nice early drilling