Determining Authenticity

[James]

What do you look at to determine if a particular gun is an authentic antique or has had restoration work done?
What flags wave to suggest contemporary?
Do original locks have mold marks on the frizzen?
How can one tell if patina is earned or added?
I have more questions, but would like to know how you folks know which ones are and which aren't authentic. 
Thank you, Jim

[WElliott]

Jim, there are flags but there is no substitute for seeing, and handling, as many old guns as possible.  I am told that Treasury agents learn to spot counterfeit bills not by studying counterfeit bills but by carefully studying the real thing.  Of course, more recently made rifles are "the real thing", too, and have an inherent value of their own.  Well-done restoration work by an expert, particularly when necessary to stabilize an antique, is acceptable to most collectors, but not to all.  Ethical collectors would agree that any restoration work should always be disclosed to potential buyers and that restoration should be undertaken after careful study and consideration. 

[Fullstock longrifle]

Wayne is absolutely right, handling original rifles and taking the time to really study what you are looking at is the best way to learn how to tell the difference between an original and a newer made gun.  The man who taught me the most about longrifles would take a gun he was seeing for the first time, sit in a chair and slowly study it from the butt to the muzzle.  I've seen him study an old gun for as long as 15 minutes without saying a word.  The better the rifle, the longer he was silent.  By doing that you not only learn about the gun, but you begin to see what restoration has (or hasn't) been done to it.  I also agree with Wayne that an ethical seller (or collector) will point out restoration work, but if you depend on that without learning how to spot restoration work yourself, you will eventually be taken by a seller (or collector) who isn't so ethical.

One last thought on the topic, I don't think a collector (who is the owner of the gun) has any responsibility to divulged restoration work done on his piece.  The only time that information needs to be revealed is at the time it's sold.  With that said, most collectors will be glad to educate someone new to the hobby who has a real desire to learn.

FK

[Longknife]

It is also advantageous to study contemporary rifles, that way you can identify certain parts that are currently being reproduced. One thing that is usually overlooked in "antiqueing" a contemporary piece is the rifling. Antique rifling is different than it is today, the lands are usually wider than the grooves and looking at the muzzle the bore looks comletely different. The lands are flatter and give the bore a "squared off" look. Take a look closely at the lock  and see if you can ID it as a current product, if it looks identical to a Siler, it may be! If possible remove the lock  and inspect the internal parts They shoud exhibit the same wear and use/abuse as the rest of the piece. This then lets you inspect the mortice and it should look as old as the piece itself.  The furniture and architecture is the most easily antiqued and the hardest to detect. Here you may have to go by "gut feeling" and experience.  I usually like to get two or more Yays' or Nays' before I determing a pieces origin and sometimes thats not enough!!! ....Ed   

[JCKelly]

All authentic iron or steel parts were forged, and not investment cast. No one cast steel by any means in the muzzle-loading era ("steel mounted" London Colts used cast malleable iron trigger guards).

Get yourself some reproduction parts, a Siler lock from Chambers would be a good place to start. All the internals are investment cast and the screws are neater than originals. Maybe a couple odd pieces of brass hardware, such as thimbles, sideplate, forend cap. Original wood screws were iron, never (never say never?) brass.

Original nipples had four flats, not two as on modern.

Many repro rifles have too much wood around the lock, and around the barrel breech as seen from the top.

If you are into percussion accoutrements get an Italian powder flask. Different screws holding the head to body, cast head vs formed & lsoldered head on antique, gate spring has square edges on repro, beveled on original.

[James]

First, thank you all for taking the time. I do get your gist regarding "seeing" more originals. I have handled only one original, a Reedy. I will do as you say when I attend next years Lewisburg show.
  You did all address part of my reason for the post, in that while looking at photos in another post, what jumped at me was how much a lock looked like a production lock, and the photos show the mold marks on the frizzen. I realize that these are used when the original piece is missing a lock. So knowing what production furniture and parts look like is part of the eval. Thank you, I am learning.

[Collector]

James,

A good question and all good advice.  IMHO, you'll find none better than right here.     

I might add that on a cost and effort v. benefit basis, acquiring a catalog from Track Of The Wolf, perusing through it and using it as a reference guide, will give you a pretty fair basis for recognizing contemporary parts. 

Good luck!!

   

[rich pierce]

Often/usually there is no paper trail showing what a gun looked like before and after restoration.  Also "common practices" change over time.  In all of Kindig's "Thoughts on Kentucky Rifles in the Golden Age" there is perhaps on rifle that was incompletely restored, and no incomplete rifles, or ones still in percussion.  Not one "in the black".  Probably some of them had some restoration work done, but it was not something folks worried as much about then.  It was expected that one did the right thing, which was to do the best one could to restore a rifle to close to original condition.

I recall that in the 1970's it was common to polish originals up before taking them to the show, and leaving an early longrifle that had been converted to percussion, in that state, was unthinkable.  Now some consider the "percussing" as part of the history of the gun and consider leaving it.