Stock Arrived- PROBLEMS-

[outdoorsaddy]

I am attempting my first real build on a flintlock.  My kit arrived last week and while everything was there, the stock has a problem.  The ramrod hole is WAAAAYYY OFF!  I'm going to attach some pics and hope to get your advice.

I know that someone will tell me to call the person who sold it to me, but if he was willing to send this shoddy and incomplete work out, I'm very skeptical of his willingness to make it right.  He had to know the ramrod channel was cut wrong because he used a router to "try" and fix his problem.

To his credit it is a nice piece of very curly maple, which is what I paid for.

The ramrod hole was cut at a SEVERE angle, going both up into the barrel channel and sideways toward the side plate.  He did not go more than 3 1/2" before he quit and then routed out the channel, which is both higher (as looking from the barrel down) and does not extend all the way to the end of the barrel channel (which I asked to be left short so that I could inlet the tang web).
The ramrod hole was also drilled about 1/16" to 1/8" higher than the routed channel in the forstock.


Here are some Pics







Notice that the ramrod does not go all the way into the hole, it binds.

I think I can make it work by routing the channel down low enough and by adding epoxy to give me back my web and structural support.  I just want to make sure before I begin to cut on it.

Thanks,
Steve

[bgf]

Wait for some feedback before judging that work as shoddy and incomplete.  For what little its worth, I think it is on purpose to give you extra wood below rr-channel in TG area while still keeping stock profile thin and also to clear mainspring of lock (diversion to sideplate).  You will probably want a tapered ramrod, anyway, and you can square off that routed channel quite easily if you need to.

[rich pierce]

Some folks provide their inletted blanks/precarves that way.  Now you have to decide whether you can live with it or not.  I'll suggest trying to keep communications between you and the supplier friendly.  You might have to eat the shipping both ways to get a refund if there was not an explicit expectation of how the ramrod "hole" would be handled.

If you decide to keep it, it will take about 3 hours of work to fix it and you will need a ramrod drill, and you'll have to accept that under the barrel, it will never look perfect or be done as most originals were done.

[bob in the woods]

I hate to say this, but....I've seen a lot of pre carves like that. Not so bad, perhaps, but close. They didn't route that channel to attempt to fix anything. It's just how they do it.
The routing of the channel for the ram rod is a common way to save time and $, avoiding the potential run out of drilling the channel full length.   As you can see, a lot of these precarve kits are a lot of work to "fix"
which is why I work from a blank , or put out the money for a Chambers or like quality kit.
I just received my Penn. fowler 28 bore with cherry stock from Chambers, and I don't regret 1 dollar spent.

[billd]

Just adding that I've never seen a ramrod that will go into the hole of a precarve.  Most ramrods are oversize or slightly oval and have to be scraped. 

Bill

[T*O*F]

As others have said, there is nothing wrong with the stock.......it's the way many make them.  There is nothing to correct and as a first time builder, he probably did you a favor.  Not only will the ramrod go to the offside, but it will allow you to place your lock screws so they clear the ramrod.  The ledge will disappear when you inlet your rear thimble and once the barrel is in, it don't mean a hill of beans that there is a groove under it.  Been done this way for decades.  No stocks get ruined when done this way, especially with premium wood.  One the other hand, lots of premium wood gets ruined by having the ramrod drill wander and come out where it isn't supposed to.

You're going to have a lot more problems to correct during your first build without having to invent one that doesn't exist.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

If that routed rod hole offends you, there's an easy fix.  Once the barrel is in its channel, the ramrod tapered and fit all the way back to the end of the barrel channel, just cut a piece of maple that'll fit into the routed grove, glue it in, and finish it to be the bottom flat of the channel.  You will forget about the method the precarve was made, once you have the rifle finished and are shooting it well.

[Daryl]

I agree - that is exactly the way my Tenn. .32 squirrel rifle stock was made. I didn't see that until after I'd received it from Penn. Since I live close to the West coast of British Columbia, mailing it back wasn't in my vocabulary - I wouldn't have returned it any way - I don't mind the groove and if I did, I could easily have covered the channel.

[Dave B]

You know this is actually done intentionally by some builders to drill the hole for the ramrod off center (towards the side plate) to allow for a longer ramrod. If its run dead center you will hit the trigger guard lug if its off set you miss it and will be able to make your ram rod a couple inches longer so if you dry ball you wil beable to use the pulling pliers on the extra length of rod. I have now started doing this on all  my rifles and was shown this by Jack Rouse who used to build nice Iron mounted rifles in Waterton KY I think.  The step at the entry will be easy to fix with a gouge and mallet. 

[Long Ears]

How well I know! My first "kit" looked like a disaster out of the box. At least you have this forum to settle you down some. We can help you through the questions. And as everyone has said it looks ok to me also. That RR hole off center may really be a blessing. Go slow and ask lots of questions. Bob

[R.W.D.]

This is one of the reasons that I will no longer buy a pre-carved stock.  I also prefer to do my own inletting.  It is easier than dealing with someone else's  "mistakes".  It's just easier to make the stock fit the parts than trying to make the parts fit a pre-carved stock.  I hope I said that right.

[Dphariss]

If I bought a stock and it came with a routed rod hole it would be on the way back the next day.

Dan

[WadePatton]

wait what?

too many responses with "like everybody else said/says/saying" when in fact there are several different-conflicting replies.

one is "that's why i use only blanks"
another is "that's why i pay extra for Chambers"
another is "that's the way of the pre-carve"
another is "nothing wrong, just build it, it's supposed to be crooked"

i don't get the "recognition of general consensus" replies.

i get that the routed channel is SOP.

[Dphariss]

wait what?

too many responses with "like everybody else said/says/saying" when in fact there are several different-conflicting replies.

one is "that's why i use only blanks"
another is "that's why i pay extra for Chambers"
another is "that's the way of the pre-carve"
another is "nothing wrong, just build it, it's supposed to be crooked"

i don't get the "recognition of general consensus" replies.

i get that the routed channel is SOP.

The stock can be make into a good rifle.
But the machined groove is just a cheap way to put in a ramrod. It can be scraped deeper. The advantage for the neophyte is knowing exactly where the rod hole is. It will allow making the  clearance necessary for the front lock screw. So there are advantages. Its a trade off.
It weakens the forend and really should have a piece glued over it in the completed rifle as Taylor said. His point of tapering the rod will also fix the rod angle.

Buyers need to question the stock cutters closer before buying.
People buying precarved stocks need to understand that there is always work to be done and problems to be overcome. Its part of gun building.

Dan

[James Rogers]

The stock can be make into a good rifle.
But the machined groove is just a cheap way to put in a ramrod. It can be scraped deeper. The advantage for the neophyte is knowing exactly where the rod hole is. It will allow making the clearance necessary for the front lock screw. So there are advantages. Its a trade off.
It weakens the forend and really should have a piece glued over it in the completed rifle as Taylor said. His point of tapering the rod will also fix the rod angle.

Dan

Exactly

[54Bucks]

 I've put together a few rifles using Track of the Wolf precarves, another from Wayne Dunlap, and one from Brad Emig at Cabin Creek. None of them had the ramrod hole into the barrel channel. Nor was it a special problem to install lock and bolts, or the finished ramrod. If it were mine it would go back. I wouldn't accept this as a common occurance for a precarve. Even though it can be fixed, it defeats the reason/s for using a precarved stock. Builders can tout building from a blank without denigrating a precarved stock.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Steve, What is the style/school of the precarve you purchased?  What size is the barrel and what lock is included in the kit??

[Dphariss]

I've put together a few rifles using Track of the Wolf precarves, another from Wayne Dunlap, and one from Brad Emig at Cabin Creek. None of them had the ramrod hole into the barrel channel. Nor was it a special problem to install lock and bolts, or the finished ramrod. If it were mine it would go back. I wouldn't accept this as a common occurance for a precarve. Even though it can be fixed, it defeats the reason/s for using a precarved stock. Builders can tout building from a blank without denigrating a precarved stock.

Precarves are a PITA. The last one I did I had to invent a tool to get the ramrod to clear the lock bolt.
If the lock is cut its invariably too far forward. The one before that I had to make a lockplate to fit the mortise. Both made into really nice rifles.  
Not all precarves are equal. Chambers stocks, from the 2-3 I have seen are excellent so far as precarves go as are the parts he sells.
Others have drops at the heal and comb that are not as advertised.
This said they can save a lot of work and lot of wear and tear on older builders  
So they serve a purpose.  But the builder is often "stuck" and is unable to change buttplates for example due to buttstock dimensions.
Many parts on the market some are made by people who do not understand gun building or more important QUALITY gun building but only how they can make the part as cheap as possible and still get the customer to accept the product.
So we see precarves with milled rod "holes" and locks with holes drilled in the plate at weird angles so the internals don't function properly, barrels that are improperly breeched or poorly bored (smooth or rifled), castings with large pits or actual voids, brass parts that are actually bronze.
We all tend to find this out the hard way unless we can get the parts in person and inspect before buying.
I saw a bundle of ramrod drills for sale this summer that I would not give a nickel for but people will buy them thinking the guy that make them knows what he is doing and then ruin stocks when the drill runs off someplace where its not wanted.
Dan

[Rootsy]

Every pre-carve manufacturer can and will at some point deliver an iffy piece.  It's manufacturing, it's going to happen,  inspection or not... It's up to us, the customers, to be diligent and not accept sub standard work, especially for what is being charged for these components. 

Inspect thoroughly upon receiving.

In your example I'd be more concerned with how parallel the external ramrod channel is relative to the barrel channel than the internal cut channel. 

[54Bucks]

 Forgetting a moment this stock is a pre-carve, how about a show of hands that would accept this if your blank came inlet this way?

[Captchee]

DANG , Dan if I saw all those in a pre carve assembly , id would send it back  to .
Like others here , I prefer to build from a plank .
 But I don’t turn down work that folks bring me .
As such I build  a few pre carves every year . Every now and then I get one in that has  the RR channel routed  like this one .

 Myself , im going to  give a different opinion then Dan
  But like Dan , I don’t  care for the  routing out  of the channel in the forearm . At the same time I understand it .
  As others have said ,   doing the RR channel that way , corrects a multitude of possible  issues.  So why are these issues possible to begin with . Well because all to often the people selling these assemblies don’t build the stocks .
They sell a multitude of different parts  some of which  are listed  for the stock .
 Nothing wrong with that  except that it gives the customer a choice  greater then those  listed .
So a  person decides to do alittle research and he comes to a place like this   to ask questions .
Enviable someone will say don’t use that lock , you want this lock OR you don’t want that barrel , get this barrel .
 The stock maker plans for that   IE worst case .
 They don’t just run  one off stocks
 So while this routing of the  rr channel corrects  the issue many others have mentioned . What it also does is allow for a lock with a wider mainspring
 I was also told one time  by a company that  does that type of routing , that  they did so because  of the number of  complains they were getting from people who didn’t know how to fit a rr so that it wouldn’t fall out of the stock  when the channel was properly drilled .

  I also do not think it overly weakens the stock .
IE if this is a strait barrel , the web will be no thicker there then it is in the forestock. If it’s a tapered barrel  or swamped , its going to be even thinner .
As to paying for inletting. IMO it’s a waste of money to begin with  as I have never seen  one that was truly inlet  unless it comes from Jim chambers OR the person paid for a gun in the white .

A couple years ago I had a young man  ask me to finish an assembly from  a very popular and well known supplier  . He had bought it for a present to build and give to his father . He had paid for all the drilling and inletting . But what he got was  the lock bolt holes drilled  in the stock .  Which by the way the front hole went through the RR channel
Lock wasn’t drilled .
Lock inlet was nothing more then  hog work . Not only was it  ¼ to shallow but they left  the  real inletting and fitting of the lock  for him to do .
Same with the buttplate inletting . Nothing more then a basic shape was cut from the stock .  The true fitting of the  butt plate  was left to be done by the customer .
Tang area  looked fine tell you went to put the tang in . then what  one found was that it too was undersized .
 To make a long story short  all the inletting he paid for  IMO wasn’t inletting  . Really nothing more then  removal of some of the wood below the part . Leaving the real  fitting to the customer . So IMO he wasted another 100.00 by paying  those  inletting and drilling fee’s  as they  left the real work  for the customer anyway.

So here is my opinion for those out there  wanting to start building .
  This is not a slam against the original poster of this thread . But if your  concerned about 1/16 or 1/8ths , then  you best build from a plank  and build the way you want or think it should be . For when you buy a precarve , your assuming and accepting that the person  who is building  the stock  knows more then you do
 
 Ill finish about the cost .
 Many folks wrongly think that  these guns are kits  like a Lyman ,TC or  CVA . They arnt  unless you buy the bun in the white .
 But all to often they see the cost  of those  being sold in the white and then opt for a Pre carve . But they soon find out why many of us charge what we do for the guns we build . Why we chose to buy from who we do  and thus recommend who we do .

So outdoorsaddy, IMO your stock looks fine . There are some issues that your going to have to overcome  and a some  work ahead of you. But your going to learn a list of things that you don’t like . Thus on your next rifle  you may decide to build from a plank.
  That IMO is the only way you will ever get things exactly how you want them  past buying a more expensive assembly  like the one Jim Chambers sells 

[Captchee]

Forgetting a moment this stock is a pre-carve, how about a show of hands that would accept this if your blank came inlet this way?

 i would need to see more of the stock  before i could say
what is the quality of the stock . just becouse it has figure doesnt mean its quality .
as was mentioned  is the rest of the cannel correcly placed to the barrel channel ?
 how thick is the wb between the  rr and barrel channels ?
 did the  company also inlet the lock and side plate . If so how

 if a person brought this to me to finish building , i would look at all these things and  more .
Advise them of the issues and  options , then plan my charges accordingly . I may or may not reject the stock . but the same thing could be said for the lock , triggers  or any other part .
 

[Ken G]

Forgetting a moment this stock is a pre-carve, how about a show of hands that would accept this if your blank came inlet this way?

I agree with Captchee.  To me, to return or not to return would be based on other more important concerns about the stock.  I think he covered most of them.  The routed ram rod hole just isn't that big of an issue to me.  Once pluged the strength concern is gone, it's under the barrel so it's not visible, and to me it would be more of a hasle to deal with the vendor/repack/ and return than it would take to fix.  It's not hard to cut a piece of wood for the slot.  The hard part is keeping the epoxy out of your ram rod hole. 

[Tim Crosby]

  Look at it this way, you won’t have to worry about the RR hitting the main spring. What about the breech area? Looks like there is some work to do there too. Looks the same as the end of the RR channel.

 Tim C.   

[outdoorsaddy]

Steve, What is the style/school of the precarve you purchased?  What size is the barrel and what lock is included in the kit??

Thanks for all the replies.  I haven't had time to reply since first posting this.

Sorry for not giving more information.  This is a late Lancaster with a .36 cal, 13/16, straight 42" barrel.  It has a large siler lock, brass hardware and when I ordered it I asked for the stock to be left uninleted in the tang, lock, and buttplate areas so that I could do those myself.  I did want the barrel channel inlet and the ramrod inlet.

Here are a few more pic of the stock, again it is what I ordered but was not expecting the ramrod to be this way:






Just to give a bit more info as to why I posted this as a "Problem" is that I have 2 videos (Dangler's and Turpin's) and a book (Bicio's) as well as reading many of the gun building tutorials posted both here and at the Traditional Muzzleloading Assn forum- NONE of them ever mentioned a precarve coming this way!!!  I also have read many of the other posts and never remembered seeing this situation listed.  (I've been researching this project since around January of this year.)