Stock Arrived- PROBLEMS-

[outdoorsaddy]

As I've read over these posts, I get the opinion that most builders DO NOT do the ramrod inletting in this manner, Correct?

So why is it acceptable on a precarve?

Again, I can make it work- it is just a bit disappointing to me.  The big thing I don't like about this right now is that my ramrod can only be the length of the barrel/tang inlet- unless I am missing something.  (I know I could buy a ramrod drill bit, but that was what I was trying to avoid with having it done for me)

Live and learn I guess.

Again THANK YOU for all the comments and I will keep things posted as I go...

[Majorjoel]

An interesting thread. A lot of good advise and opinions here. I would like to add just one more little tid bit to the pot here. If you receive a precarve parts set and find issues with any of the parts, make sure you don't do any work on the problem piece. Most suppliers will not take something back that has been worked on by purchasers.

[Ken G]

As I've read over these posts, I get the opinion that most builders DO NOT do the ramrod inletting in this manner, Correct?  I think it fair to say that MOST do not do ram rod holes this way.  Most of the members on this board are pretty traditional.  WHile I will say I have seen an original done this way it is not the traditional norm. 

So why is it acceptable on a precarve? Only a few stock carvers do precarves this way.  Not all of them.  I hate to say it this way but there's several reasons why a stock might be cheaper than one from another company.  You just found out one reason.  
Again, I can make it work- it is just a bit disappointing to me.

Live and learn I guess.

Again THANK YOU for all the comments and I will keep things posted as I go...

[outdoorsaddy]

  As others have said ,   doing the RR channel that way , corrects a multitude of possible  issues.  So why are these issues possible to begin with . Well because all to often the people selling these assemblies don’t build the stocks .
They sell a multitude of different parts  some of which  are listed  for the stock .
 Nothing wrong with that  except that it gives the customer a choice  greater then those  listed .
So a  person decides to do alittle research and he comes to a place like this   to ask questions .
Enviable someone will say don’t use that lock , you want this lock OR you don’t want that barrel , get this barrel .
 The stock maker plans for that   IE worst case .
 They don’t just run  one off stocks
 So while this routing of the  rr channel corrects  the issue many others have mentioned . What it also does is allow for a lock with a wider mainspring
 I was also told one time  by a company that  does that type of routing , that  they did so because  of the number of  complains they were getting from people who didn’t know how to fit a rr so that it wouldn’t fall out of the stock  when the channel was properly drilled .

I understand what you are saying here, but I do not think that my stock fits into this situation.  The person I bought this from primarily does completed guns or guns in the white.  He is just starting to offer kits.  When I called him he told me this was only the second or third kit he had sold.  The furniture he sent me was the exact same that he puts on his work.

From all of the positive feedback I have read about his completed guns, with no mention of the ramrod gap under the barrel, I have to believe that he does not make his stocks this way, but I haven't called him to ask.

[Jim Kibler]

Quality is a matter of perspective for sure.  Skill, experience, knowledge etc. result in differing expectations.  There is no hard rule.  Personally I would most likely have issues with about any pre-carve stock.  That said, I'm sure there can be fixes made to your stock that can help you work around the issues you have.  It most likely has the potential to be turned into a decent gun.

[outdoorsaddy]

In your example I'd be more concerned with how parallel the external ramrod channel is relative to the barrel channel than the internal cut channel. 

They are parallel, no problems there.  I guess I've gotten a little freaked over something I shouldn't have!

[Ken G]

Everyone has done a great job dancing around this part of the equation and I'd like to say thanks for the effort and restraint but I still want to remind everyone to keep vendor names out of this discussion.  

Ken

[b bogart]

I try to build from the blank. I had the drill runout the belly when I hit a hard spot in the wood and didn't pay enough attention to what I was doing. Live and learn. I am now trying to design a "wear  plate" for the belly. I routed the barrel channel to make corrections to the rammer hole. Believe me fitting a piece under the barrel is much more desirable to making a dag gone belly plate!!!!! Wait for a while before putting the plug in the channel. It will make alot of the measuring etc easier!
My concern is the depth of the ramrod groove to the bottom of the barrel channel.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

outdoorsaddy, you are planing a pretty slender gun with a 13/16" small bore barrel AND you are using a BIG lock......Make a tapered RR.  It will look good!!  You will find, I think that the person who precarved your blank did you a big favor...  The first two guns I built had precarved stocks and both had the RR hole routed out as yours does.  They were carved by a very well known stock maker  and they worked just fine and have held up fine for several years of beating around in the bush..........

[Habu]

If I'm guestimating measurements from that third photo correctly, you've got nigh 3/8" web between the ramrod channel and barrel channel.  By the time you scrape that to a more-appropriate thickness, you may not have an issue with the ramp going into the routed "hole" under the barrel. 

I won't say I'd return it without seeing it in hand, but I suspect it might be a l-o-n-g time before I did business with this dealer again.  I think by the time the mess was fixed I'd be so sour on the gun I'd want to swap it off and build another.

[Osprey]

Everyone has done a great job dancing around this part of the equation and I'd like to say thanks for the effort and restraint but I still want to remind everyone to keep vendor names out of this discussion.  

Ken

This is the one thing I really hate about this site.  Great overall for builders, but that rule is set up only to protect vendors.  As a builder I'd like to know who is offering what type of products or services but we can't get that here, everybody has to make the same mistakes over and over to learn that.  You say no comment on vendors, but there are several positive comments about some vendors on here - you just don't allow negative comments.  I never believe anything said on here about a supplier anymore because we can't hear both sides.  

[Ken G]

Osprey,
Sorry you feel that way.   If you really wants to know who it is you can email or PM Outdoorsaddy to find out.   He's welcome to give you the information off board.   
Thanks,
Ken

[omark]

Everyone has done a great job dancing around this part of the equation and I'd like to say thanks for the effort and restraint but I still want to remind everyone to keep vendor names out of this discussion.  

Ken

This is the one thing I really hate about this site.  Great overall for builders, but that rule is set up only to protect vendors.  As a builder I'd like to know who is offering what type of products or services but we can't get that here, everybody has to make the same mistakes over and over to learn that.  You say no comment on vendors, but there are several positive comments about some vendors on here - you just don't allow negative comments.  I never believe anything said on here about a supplier anymore because we can't hear both sides.   ::)i understand what youre saying and kind of agree, but i imagine an I M to the poster would answer your questions without violating the forum rules.    mark

 

[outdoorsaddy]

If I'm guestimating measurements from that third photo correctly, you've got nigh 3/8" web between the ramrod channel and barrel channel.  By the time you scrape that to a more-appropriate thickness, you may not have an issue with the ramp going into the routed "hole" under the barrel. 

I won't say I'd return it without seeing it in hand, but I suspect it might be a l-o-n-g time before I did business with this dealer again.  I think by the time the mess was fixed I'd be so sour on the gun I'd want to swap it off and build another.

Pretty good guess, just 1/16 too large.  There is a bit of scraping to do in order to get the web down to where I want it...

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

"
This is the one thing I really hate about this site.  Great overall for builders, but that rule is set up only to protect vendors.  As a builder I'd like to know who is offering what type of products or services but we can't get that here, everybody has to make the same mistakes over and over to learn that.  You say no comment on vendors, but there are several positive comments about some vendors on here - you just don't allow negative comments.  I never believe anything said on here about a supplier anymore because we can't hear both sides.   "

Let me just say to everyone, that the rules are not made to protect vendors.... They are made to protect all members...some of whom are vendors as well as builders.........................

Part of the rationale is to prevent the types of angry feeding frenzies which sometimes take place on internet forums.......None of us like to participate in sites that are predominately negative..... there is enough of that in real life.........  So if you want to know...send a PM and ask.

So please remember it is usually a lot more effective to talk with someone than it is to talk about them.....especially when your words will be recorded forever on the internet.

Have fun and do good work!!!

[Long Ears]

This is the one thing I really hate about this site.  Great overall for builders, but that rule is set up only to protect vendors.  As a builder I'd like to know who is offering what type of products or services but we can't get that here, everybody has to make the same mistakes over and over to learn that.  You say no comment on vendors, but there are several positive comments about some vendors on here - you just don't allow negative comments.  I never believe anything said on here about a supplier anymore because we can't hear both sides.   ::)i understand what youre saying and kind of agree, but i imagine an I M to the poster would answer your questions without violating the forum rules.    mark

That is one of the reasons I like this forum! You can always PM as previously mentioned. Great thread. Thanks, Bob

[outdoorsaddy]

outdoorsaddy, you are planing a pretty slender gun with a 13/16" small bore barrel AND you are using a BIG lock......

Do you think I should invest in a smaller lock to make things look/work better?  I'm sure I can use the larger lock because I already have plans for a bigger cal flintlock, and I am planning on piecing it together because no one has a kit in the style I want. (plus I've discovered that I'm too picky for a kit )

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

The mainspring on the Large Siler is pretty big....so the RR being out of the way should be helpful when using a 13/16 barrel....the saving grace is that the barrel is straight........ so the nose of the lock and therefore the mainspring will not be pointed in toward the midline of the bore.

I don't use straight barrels so I had better let those who know more than I answer your question.

[billd]

After three pages of posts we still don't know if the supplier was ever contacted.  Maybe this is his standard way of making stocks??  Maybe he was having a bad day?  What ever it was he should be given the chance to explain himself to the person paying for his product and make it right.

The OP said this person only made two or three kits, maybe he needs some constructive criticism from his customers to improve his products in the future.

Bill

[satwel]

The first two rifles I built used pre-carves from a company who is no longer in business. They both had ramrod channels routed just like yours. One needed more scraping than the other to adjust the rr channel for a smooth fit, but they both finished into fine looking, functional rifles. At that time, I assumed all pre-carves where made that way. I know routing is not the traditional method, but you will be the only one who knows. For my present project, I bought a pre-carve from a vendor whose work gets high marks from members of this board and the rr channel was bored its full length. I paid a lot more for it, but the precision work will save me a lot of time. I know your stock does not meet your expectation, and I don't know what you paid for it, but based on my experience and your photos, it should be usable with some extra work.

[bob in the woods]

I apologize to all for my reference re Chambers, but I did say " or of like quality"
There are a few suppliers /builders who are top notch IMO and I',m sure that they are relatively easy to find, but,....they are a tad more expensive.  It all depends on how much you value your time spent. I know that the kit I received will allow me to spend my time on the finer aspects of the build. A blank, with the barrel inlet and the ramrod channel done by one of the "specialists" found on this board is my other choice.
Either of these is ,again IMO, a faster and generally easier method than trying to work with a precarve  that fights back 

[Dennis Glazener]

This is the one thing I really hate about this site.  Great overall for builders, but that rule is set up only to protect vendors.  As a builder I'd like to know who is offering what type of products or services but we can't get that here, everybody has to make the same mistakes over and over to learn that.  You say no comment on vendors, but there are several positive comments about some vendors on here - you just don't allow negative comments.  I never believe anything said on here about a supplier anymore because we can't hear both sides. 

Osprey,
Sorry you don't like that we don't allow vendor bashing here. In a perfect world, where every negative comment has been well researched and no human anger is injected into the critique, we might be able to allow members to bash vendors. But until that perfect world comes, ALR will not allow vendor bashing. Bob's thought on how to find out who got what from whom via Private Messaging seems to be a good remedy.

I am not aware that positive comments about a vendor is a violation of ALR rules, guess I should check them again.
Dennis

[Odd Fellow]

A ramrod cannot go in he center of a slender guns stock it just doesn't fit..... Also you can drill a couple of holes in the bottom of the barrel channel to check where it is. I use a 10" brad point bit welded to a cold rolled rod. depending on the style you may have to remove material from the lock bolt. Personally I wouldn't worry about the rod placement, you need a warped rod or a warped hole to hold it in anyway. that routed area makes it easy on you like others have said.

[smshea]

  If tapering the ram rod and gluing a piece of wood in the channel.... or leave it open... is the bigest problem you encounter building this gun, you should do kart wheels in the shop!
 Many stock guys do it this way, many do not. Ive had many brought to me this way, Ive purchased some this way, after getting two in a row with "WONDERING HOLE SYNDROME" from a well known stock maker, I asked him to rout them for me rather than drill. I would say drilled vs. routed out of my shop is 50/50 and to my knowledge all of them are in working order today. On the rare occasion that I do my own channel and RR hole I drill and aim high toward the breach, this way if I pop out its usually in the channel and then I just excavate it back to the breach....no problems. Just build it and have fun!   

[Dphariss]

The buyer needs to know to ask questions.
If you want a drilled hole ASK questions of the vendor.
Does the vendor advertise that the hole it "drilled"?
If he advertises "drilled" and machines it then there is a valid issue between buyer and seller.
But irritating vendors is bad policy for magazines and I suppose web sights.
But still there needs to be some kind  of clearing house for this sort of thing I guess.


Dan