Stock Arrived- PROBLEMS-

[Acer Saccharum]

If it's your first gun, you won't have a clue what questions to ask.

This is a very complex animal, the long rifle. What seems benign at the outset oft turns into a quagmire of problems. There is no way around it, but to forge ahead. Make your mistakes and move on. Learn from everything you do.

This ALR is a great site for those who have the courage to ask the questions. The variety of responses might be seen as intimidating or confusing. However, I see it as a goldmine for opportunity. ( I opt for the lazy man's out! ) Time and again, I see folks get creative with repairs and patches, and end up with a !@*%&@ nice gun, something they can be proud of.

[Dphariss]

If it's your first gun, you won't have a clue what questions to ask.

This is a very complex animal, the long rifle. What seems benign at the outset oft turns into a quagmire of problems. There is no way around it, but to forge ahead. Make your mistakes and move on. Learn from everything you do.

This ALR is a great site for those who have the courage to ask the questions. The variety of responses might be seen as intimidating or confusing. However, I see it as a goldmine for opportunity. ( I opt for the lazy man's out! ) Time and again, I see folks get creative with repairs and patches, and end up with a !@*%&@ nice gun, something they can be proud of.

I friend once dropped a completed stock and broke it in front of the lock. Got it glued back together but had lost some wood. To get the curl to run across the replacement wood he tattooed it with a needle and stain.

Dan

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Now that is creative..............

[R.W.D.]

I've assembled three kit guns for people were the ramrod hole is milled.  Once I get the ramrod to fit correctly I cover the ramrod in plumbers putty and used glassbed compound to fill the slot.  This has worked well for me so far and it has to add some strength to the stock.  I have an old kit gun that a friend brought to me that is a real basket case that I have been working on.  The ramrod hole on it was so bad that I had to route it trough the barrel channel just to get it to work.  The main thing I don't like about precarved stocks is that there is always too much wood in some areas and not enough left in others.

[Osprey]

Let me just say to everyone, that the rules are not made to protect vendors.... They are made to protect all members...some of whom are vendors as well as builders.........................

That may not be why the rule was made, but that's the effect.  We'e all aware how to use the PM, and if I wanted to know who the stock maker was I'd certainly use that.  Just pointing out that we're only allowed to hear one side, the positive side, by the moderators and that's no real service to builders or members.  I've been burned by this once on here by a stockmaker that had great things said about them on ALR, yet when I had a problem my PM's were full of folks who had the same issues or worse.  The rule may be great for civility, but it's bad for anyone coming on seeking real info.  Any positive comments about vendors or suppliers are worthless because that's all you allow to be posted.

[rich pierce]

Osprey, as a moderator, I agree with you 100% but support the policy.  ALR is not the site or place to go to to learn who does and does not have a good reputation as a supplier.  I've seen a lot of bashing on other sites and in some cases, much harm is done.  The ALR forum is not attempting to do everything or be everything for the builder of the traditional longrifle.

This post and topic has done well to not mention the vendor, but points out how things could easily turn from a spark to a fire to a conflagration.  In my opinion as an individual, not representing the forum, is that the internet and forums such as these can easily become places to complain.  Again, I applaud the restraint of the original poster who was really looking for information as to whether this problem is a deal-breaker or not.  He got that information and now can make an informed decision about how to go forward.  Bravo to all.

This is why I support the policy of not bashing suppliers: I have seen cases on other forums where entire lines of goods (such as locks, for example) develop a poor reputation and people pile on until a business is practically ruined, because "the (angry) customer is always right".  One loud complainer, on the internet, can bring out 6 others who believe they had a "bad experience".  The 70,000 satisfied customers, in contrast, are not all heated up and don't bother to post.  Two disservices are done. First, a business is damaged.  Second, customers lose out on choices.

Just my thoughts; but you can be sure the policy is not going to change anytime soon.

[Rootsy]

In the culture of Corporate America, the adage is... "You are only as good as your last failure."

[smshea]

Osprey, as a moderator, I agree with you 100% but support the policy.  ALR is not the site or place to go to to learn who does and does not have a good reputation as a supplier.  I've seen a lot of bashing on other sites and in some cases, much harm is done.  The ALR forum is not attempting to do everything or be everything for the builder of the traditional longrifle.

This post and topic has done well to not mention the vendor, but points out how things could easily turn from a spark to a fire to a conflagration.  In my opinion as an individual, not representing the forum, is that the internet and forums such as these can easily become places to complain.  Again, I applaud the restraint of the original poster who was really looking for information as to whether this problem is a deal-breaker or not.  He got that information and now can make an informed decision about how to go forward.  Bravo to all.

This is why I support the policy of not bashing suppliers: I have seen cases on other forums where entire lines of goods (such as locks, for example) develop a poor reputation and people pile on until a business is practically ruined, because "the (angry) customer is always right".  One loud complainer, on the internet, can bring out 6 others who believe they had a "bad experience".  The 70,000 satisfied customers, in contrast, are not all heated up and don't bother to post.  Two disservices are done. First, a business is damaged.  Second, customers lose out on choices.

Just my thoughts; but you can be sure the policy is not going to change anytime soon.

Bravo! and Amen.

[Robby]

Rich, While I agree with you for the most part, I do remember the free exchange of thoughts on  vendors, Here. Its a fine line sometimes, but maybe sometimes people are taking advantage of past glory and their current product isn't what they made their name from, and need a verbal boot in the rear to get back on track! As always, I will abide by the current parameters of the forum, but it does seem to ebb and flow on just what can be discussed and what cannot. And who is doing the discussing!
Robby

[Glenn]

Rich, While I agree with you for the most part, I do remember the free exchange of thoughts on  vendors, Here. Its a fine line sometimes, but maybe sometimes people are taking advantage of past glory and their current product isn't what they made their name from, and need a verbal boot in the rear to get back on track! As always, I will abide by the current parameters of the forum, but it does seem to ebb and flow on just what can be discussed and what cannot. And who is doing the discussing!
Robby

I have to agree with you here.  Good point.

[Jim Kibler]

Here's my take.  Educate yourself.  Study original guns or good contemporary guns.  Study all the photos you can.  Read all the books you can on building longrifles.  Understand each step.  Ask questions about about each step.  Begin to understand the characteristics of a fine longrifle.  Relying on others  without a fundamental understanding is a recipe for problems.  There's no easy way but to dig in and learn.

Jim

[R.W.D.]

I thought we were talking about pre-carved stocks versus stock blanks. If the moderator says no talking about vendors then that is it period.  I for one want to read about how people deal with some of the "problems" encountered on pre-carved stocks.
The main problem I have run into is there not being enough wood.  I guess I'm saying the stock is too thin especially in the forend. 

[Birddog6]

First you just have to decide if you want to fix the stock & go on, or send it back.  It is not hard to fix, it all depends on whether you want to do it or not.

To repair it, cut a piece of wood the size & shape of the routed out part, LESS the RR hole part. Nutherwords we are going to put a cap over that hole.
Cut the filler piece it to fit,
Take a 3/8" RR (if that is your hole size) and cut 3 pieces off it 1/4" long. 
Lay those pieces in the routered out RR hole one on each end of the routered hole & one in the middle.
Now take some Accraglas Gel  & mix it, put some around the edge of the hole, around the edge of the filler piece, slip it in, smear it smooth on the top of the filler sealing all cracks & let it sit 24 hrs.  You just patched the hole & strengthened the stock.
Now go to the hardware or Lowes & buy 4' of 5/16" round rod & a 25/64" metal drill bit.  .
Braze or weld the rod to the bit keeping it Straight. If it comes out a lil off, heat it red hot & put it straight & let it cool.
Mount the stock in a vice at the Lock area, support the Forestock.  I drill them al the time by myself, in fact, I drill out EVERY stock I get, as a 3/8 hole & a 3/8 RR just don't jive well....  you need clearance.....
Lay the drill in the barrel channel. Put on a leather glove & hold the bit down at a smooth area of the bit (upper shank) and start the drill & start drilling, Back out MANY times to clear chips of you will hang the bit !!
Drill out the hole, the 1/4" RR pieces, Accraglass dribbles, etc.
Now you have a hole large enough that a 3/8" RR will go in, you don't have to taper the RR (which I will try my hardest  not to do) and the routered hole is capped & the hole is drilled out.

The drill bit will follow the main hole, so it will take care of that offset at the entrypipe, routered out part, strengthen the stock.  Just run it back & forth many times to insure it got all the wood & is not binding.

Personally, I will not build one that is routered out this way, as it is additional work to fill & I don't like patching something before I start working on it.  However, there are a few stock shapers  that cut them like this.  Just depends on what YOU want.

Someone mentioned that some precarves come with too much wood taken off the forestocks.  That is because newbies want the parts to drop in, sand & finish......  Also  IMHO, the vender wants you to shape it like HE wants it shaped.  Look at different suppliers & you will find many with  plenty    of wood left on the forestock. Some leave them totally squared off on the forestock & personally I prefer that. Takes about 20 min to take that wood down to where ya need it, and you have a good solid forestock to work with until the time come to slim it down.


Keith Lisle
 

[Curt Larsen]

As I understand the problem, the hole was initially drilled off center so he re routed the rr channel deeper to correct it and now the web between the barrel channel and the rr channel is really thin.  Taylor and Daryl's comments on filling the routed channel after the ramrod is installed is a good tip.  If you really want to do this right, you could glue in a suitable maple dowel (a hardware store one will do) into the rr hole and channel (full length).  Then, re route the channel by hand to the proper depth and redrill the final depth with a ramrod drill.  You've got to be really carefull about this though since this is a precarve.  You won't be able to see any added wood after it is stained and besides, it will be covered by the ramrod.  Alternatively, have the guy who did the stock use this method.  It is a better fix than the one he attempted.  Or just send it back to him and ask for another (the easiest fix of all).

[Acer Saccharum]

I'm guessing how this rr channel was cut is standard operating procedure. If you ask for a replacement stock, you'll get the same thing. It's how this supplier does it.

That said, there is nothing that makes it unusable. As far as putting the hole off to toward the side plate, I do that intentionally whenever I can. This helps prevent breakthru into the rr hole when inletting the lock's mainspring.

Tom

[Habu]

After thinking about it for a while, reading over the posts, and doing a couple of sketches, I'd suggest contacting the seller, explaining the problems, and arranging to return the stock for a replacement or refund.

Here's why:
When the ramrod groove is scraped in about 3/16", the short (3 1/2") hole the supplier drilled to connect the ramrod groove and the routed groove under the barrel is also going to have to be relocated.  When the OP inlets the entry pipe and thins the forend, he's probably going to break through. 

So he can either 1) scrape the groove to proper depth, plug the ramrod hole, buy a ramrod drill and drill through the plug; or 2) scrape the hole to depth and plan now on having to put a "wear plate" in to cover the hole.  A number of folks have suggested the supplier did the OP a favor by routing the groove off to one side inside the barrel channel.  Perhaps--but a "favor" like that doesn't make up for the extra work (and possibly extra cost for a ramrod drill) created.

Yes, there are ways to fix the problems.  Yes, the OP would probably learn a lot doing the repairs, and it might make him a better builder in the long run.  But he didn't buy the stock to learn to do repairs, he bought the stock to have the work done that he wasn't set up to do or didn't know how to do. 

As Acer wrote, if he asks for a replacement stock it will probably be done the same way--but if the transition from ramrod groove to routed channel is done right it would work out OK. 

If the seller balks at replacing it, the OP can take the money saved on shipping, buy a ramrod drill, and build a gun that is probably going to bother him forever.  Or he can sell the stock and buy one that meets his abilities/wants/needs. 

[54Bucks]

 This situation is not normal! Perhaps it's normal to have a stock blank inlet with the RR hole drilled this way. And then go to such lengths to correct it???

[VirginiaSmokepole]

SEND THAT JUNK BACK!!

[rich pierce]

Good advice, all.  The seller should always be contacted first unless someone just needs clarification on whether something is "normal" or not.  We've learned that some providers of precarved stocks start the ramrod hole by drilling then rout a channel.  Only by contacting the seller can the original poster learn if that is his/her common practice and whether the next stock would be the same.  Now anyone who uses precarves knows to ask whether the ramrod hole is drilled all the way or drilled part way and routed.

[54Bucks]

 Are you seriously implying anyone who routes out the barrel inletted space to correct a ramrod hole needs contacted 1st? No doubt that person also sells screendoors for submarines.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

There are a number of suppliers who rout ramrod holes like this rather than drilling them all the way......  Its not wrong... its what they do... Also it may have been intentialy  drilled off center due to the narrow barrel..........you don't have to buy it...and as Rich says, we should all know enuf now to ask their method up front.....  I prefer mine drilled and that's what I contract for.. precarve or when getting a brell inlet and RR hole drilled.     I haven't seen any screendoors  

[Leatherbelly]

[quote\]Yes, there are ways to fix the problems.  Yes, the OP would probably learn a lot doing the repairs, and it might make him a better builder in the long run.  But he didn't buy the stock to learn to do repairs, he bought the stock to have the work done that he wasn't set up to do or didn't know how to do.

As Acer wrote, if he asks for a replacement stock it will probably be done the same way--but if the transition from ramrod groove to routed channel is done right it would work out OK.

If the seller balks at replacing it, the OP can take the money saved on shipping, buy a ramrod drill, and build a gun that is probably going to bother him forever.  Or he can sell the stock and buy one that meets his abilities/wants/needs.

[/quote]
 
 Habu, you're so sensible! Not sure what OP means. I guess you really need to look around for a good parts set.Chambers treated me very well. Just wish he made his precarved stocks a little longer. Ya I know, logistics,lol!
 

[James Rogers]

Maybe we (or ALR members who are suppliers/makers of pre-carves)  could post which suppliers/makers DRILL their ramrod holes.

[Habu]

 Habu, you're so sensible! Not sure what OP means. I guess you really need to look around for a good parts set.Chambers treated me very well. Just wish he made his precarved stocks a little longer. Ya I know, logistics,lol!

"OP"= "original poster"

I don't think anyone who knows me well would suggest that I am sensible, even on my best days.  I just figure contacting the supplier first works often enough that it is worth a try, while recognizing it doesn't work often enough to rely on it. 

Thirty years ago, I set up a rule to deal with this problem and named it after a supplier who jerked me around for a couple years.  Simply phrased, the rule says: "Don't burn bridges--call in an air strike."  But it is almost always better to take a different route and avoid the bridge before you get to it.

Honestly, I was surprised by the way the ramrod hole was routed under the barrel.  I didn't realize anyone still did this commercially.

[kutter]

I still can't tell if the routed portion is high, low off to the left or right.
 But what ever it is if you don't want to deal with the vendor and do want to save the stock,,go ahead and inlet the bbl.
Then shave the RR groove down to where you want it, assuming the web is a little thick between the bottom of the groove and the bottom flat of  the bbl.

Then inside the barrel inlet, cut open the routed out section to allow the ramrod to freely pass down all the way to the breech w/o bending or hitting anything.

Then glass bed a correct size ramrod of steel/aluminum substitute in place.
A steel or aluminum rod works the best as a straight piece of new metal rod stock can be used.
Even the best of ramrods can have a bend to them. Plus they can be bent when pushed or clamped into place. Using a wooden rod with the epoxy bedding is always tricky and risking breaking the rod off when removing it.

Coated with ample release agent to allow removal after the compound begins to set, the resulting RR cavity will be straight and the surrounding fragile wood will be strengthened.
Remove or at least loosen the rod after the compound has set up but not completely cured. Waiting till it has completely cured will make it tougher to remove.
Use a ramrod that is longer than the stock so you have something to get ahold of at the muzzle end to twist slightly and pull on to get it out of there. It will be tight!

Pre cut and fit a maple 'cover' if you like to fit over the routed slot and clamp into place when epoxying. That can be worked down to the bbl inlet flat and finished up to hide the 'fix' nicely though nothing shows unless the barrel itself is removed.