Author Topic: shooting with a cant block  (Read 14389 times)

Offline KNeilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
shooting with a cant block
« on: September 28, 2011, 07:38:20 AM »
In an effort to improve my chunk shooting, I made a cant block to clamp on my rifle ( thx to a post from  Ken G). I wanted to try this because I seem to shoot a horizontal "peanut" shaped hole rather than a round one, and was thinking this may help. While watching some guys doing some long range shooting, a freind says.."see that tape on the barrel, thats the sweet spot. thats where you rest it on cross sticks or bench.  So my question is.....Does a fullstock longrifle have a "sweet spot"?   I made this block to clamp at the front ramrod pipe and am wondering if I should be able to adjust it? Or am I just thinking too much......     Kerry

Offline smokinbuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3005
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2011, 04:33:18 PM »
Kerry,
There is a sweet spot on every rifle barrel and you need to create a certain amount of flexibility in the placement of your cant. Generally speaking a starting point for cant placement is +/- 6"-10" behind the muzzle. Like any other sighting process, once you find the best load for your rifle you may want to move the cant block back and forth to see if it has any, or how much, effect on the POI with a series of shots. The most important factor to keep in mind is consistancy. Every time you attach the cant make certain that it is in the same place on the barrel as the last time.
Mark
Mark

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2011, 04:54:51 PM »
Try it near the muzzle first.
Every barrel is different so only actual testing will tell.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2011, 05:54:13 PM »
Nice to see you're "thinking" chunk and practising, Kerry. Others might not hold my enthusiasm - HA!

I found my .40 with only a 36" barrel, needed to rest on the bag at the 2nd entry pipe to hold normal accuracy when shooting off a chunk.  The near muzzle-rest about doubled the group size. As I moved the rest back to the second pipe, the group tightened up into a nice stacking hole.

BTW- while prasticing with the 'cant' block might help grouping during practise, it's postion might be different than where the barrel wants to sit without the block attached. Note that it is not allowed at Heffley's chunk shoot.

Looks like a good design.

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2011, 08:27:05 PM »
As you know the sweet spot is important, so I will only say try for the new gal's sweet spot via moving 'around' and when found remember where it is. (and mark the spot on the barrel) ::) :-X

Offline KNeilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2011, 02:44:06 AM »
 Gents, thx for the replys..... Definately answers my question! As is, the block wont take a lot of work to perform as has been suggested. Daryl, I`m glad you chimed in. I did have a look at the "rules" as posted for 2010, I thought this would describe a cant block
Quote
however modern-type adjustable Chunk Specific rests will be
From what your saying, in regards to Heffley,  Im assuming the connection from rest to rifle must allow rotational movement. We`ll have to discuss this more later.  I went out and tried the cant block yesterday, and was happy with the immediate result, which is, I seemed to narrow my grouping in a horizontal plane. For the first time in a while I took a spotting scope and numbered the hits so I also could get an idea what happened as the barrel warmed. An interesting discovery was, on a cold barrel, the first couple hits climb, then they seem to settle and group. The groups being about 1.5-2 in. I shot 5 for intial group, and then ten for score on two separate targets as we did at Heffley. Didnt quite match my result there, but got good and close. I also am beginning to understand placement of your "X" , as a small movement can have quite a result. In my case, I seem to put more shots to the right side of the group than left. This is another puzzle I`ll have to chase down. Heres a couple targets for a visual..........   thx  and  regards              Kerry

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2011, 03:00:18 AM »
Thought the rules stated a normal adjustable chunk rest could be used, or a log, along with a sand bag or pad.  As cant blocks are not included in 'can be used' list, they can't. My rules - HA!.

Seemed to make a postive difference in your grouping, Kerry. For the most, part, looks great.

Where were you resting the stock? I take it, you weren't shooting the underhammer with the swamped barrel, but rather the flinter?

Offline KNeilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2011, 04:01:04 AM »
Hi Daryl, yes, I am using my flint rifle. I started out with it so until I find its best abilitys or flaws at this, I`ll stick with it. For the targets shown, the block was lightly affixed to the stock at the front RR pipe (about 3" from muzzle). After reading the earlier posts, I am looking frwds to trying different positions on the rifle to see the differences. Your right about the rules saying a normal adjustable chunk rest and the sand bag or pad. I just dont know what "normal" is I guess. Actually that statement holds true for other stuff too!  ;) Actually came up with the idea to build the block by searching on ALR about chunk shooting. Ive competed in many disciplines, and understand the idea of "spirit and intent" when it comes to rules. I wasnt trying to circumvent that, and would rather play as everyone else.  Sure like how it (the cant block) holds the rifle horizontally rigid tho. And the results of that. Anyways, I just love a puzzle like this to solve.. and I`ll report my findings..........   cheers..   Kerry 

Offline Ken G

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5526
  • F & AM #758
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2011, 04:31:20 AM »
 
Are you guys saying it would be illegal at most matches? 
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline KNeilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2011, 04:49:55 AM »
Ken, if you were asking me. I`m too new at this to give a proper answer. Here are the "rules" as posted...
Quote


Our match will be held Monday afternoon over on the rifle range and hopefully we’ll be in the shade of the  shelter. “Chunks” will be provided if you don’t have your own.  Modern 3 legged rifle rests will not be allowed, however modern-type adjustable Chunk Specific rests will be. You can bring a sand bag or pad to lay on the top of your chunk if you like.

Registration will be after council fire Sunday evening, or from 8Am through 11 AM only on Monday morning.

 

Shooter’s meeting at the rifle range on Monday at 12.30PM- shooting starts 1PM sharp.

 

Now, The Rules.

 

Simply Put.

1/. You can use any traditional styled rifle of any weight and of any calibre, provided it has OPEN sights.

2/.  False muzzles are not allowed.

3/.  Removable sight shaders mounted over the open sights are allowed. No aperture sights, front or rear. No       exceptions.

4/.  Adjustable sights as provided by manufacturers are allowed, but not necessary as spotter targets are used to overlay the “X“ centre targets provided for scoring.

5/.  No spotting scopes or binoculars allowed while shooting for score.

6/.  Scoring is based upon string measure - ie: centre of the ball to the centre of the target - adding up these strings to arrive at the total string measure.

7/.  There will be a minimum of 5 shots fired on the spotter, and 10 shots for score.

8/.  Time limit 25 minutes for spotter group.

9/. 10 shot match - ie: 2 shots fired on each of 5 targets for score. Time limit of 8 min. per target.

10/. Ties, however unlikely, will be decided by the closest shot to the exact centre of the targets as numbered in order 1 through 5.

11/. Scoring will be done to the thou. of the inch, centre of the ball to the centre of the X.

12/. Range 50 yards for Rifle and Smoothbore, Men, Ladies, Juniors, sorry, no cubs due to time restraints.

 

I was assuming the cant block would come under or be included in this statement
Quote
however modern-type adjustable Chunk Specific rests will be
, however it is Daryls shoot and here I will do as expected..I am the only guy that practices off a rest where I normally shoot, most do offhand only. And like Daryl, I`d like to see more enthusiasm for this type of match. For this reason I dont want to complicate the issue by utilizing equipment others dont have or want to invest in. Just my2c........  regards .   Kerry

Offline Ken G

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5526
  • F & AM #758
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2011, 04:59:50 AM »
I guess I'm asking anyone?   
I know it was legal at the York shoot a couple of years back.  I saw several bolt on cant blocks. To my knowledge the Bevel Bros shoot and Bookie's shoot also allow them.  I think I originally got the idea from mine after seeing the one Hoot AL built for the Bevel Bros shoot.  It was a huge piece of wood.   The pics are posted on the ALR somewhere. 
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2011, 05:26:15 AM »
Ken,what I believe Daryl had hoped for in the "chunk match" he sponsors and the big BC annual rendezvous, is to have people shoot with ordinary hunting rifles, resting over a chunk.  Chunk Shooting has become very specialized with special rifles, sights, and on and on...

But he has kept it very simple to make the playing field as level as possible while the games starts to evolve, and gain interest.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline okieboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 822
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2011, 05:54:51 AM »
 Rules at chunk shoots may vary a little from shoot to shoot, which some people find charming and other people find a PITA. I haven't heard of shoots that don't allow cant blocks except the ones that don't allow "chunk" guns, but only "hunting" guns.
 Requiring at least 5 shots at the spotter and firing two shots at one X seems strange to me; and as for adjustable sights, at the York, it is required that your sights be nonadjustable, they inspect your sights and place a sticker on your gun that shows it sights have been approved.
 At the shoots in Iowa, you can't shoot a coil spring lock unless it is your first chunk shoot. 
Okieboy

Offline Ken G

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5526
  • F & AM #758
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2011, 06:10:42 AM »
Thanks guys,  I thought I was doing something that was a no, no.  I sold the rifle I made the cant block for an haven't been to the York shoot in a couple of years. 
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2011, 05:12:36 PM »
Rules at chunk shoots may vary a little from shoot to shoot, which some people find charming and other people find a PITA. I haven't heard of shoots that don't allow cant blocks except the ones that don't allow "chunk" guns, but only "hunting" guns.
 Requiring at least 5 shots at the spotter and firing two shots at one X seems strange to me; and as for adjustable sights, at the York, it is required that your sights be nonadjustable, they inspect your sights and place a sticker on your gun that shows it sights have been approved.
 At the shoots in Iowa, you can't shoot a coil spring lock unless it is your first chunk shoot.  
That minimum number of shots in practice at your spotter to establish a good group does sound a bit out of the norm; but rules is rules.  The 2 shots at each of the 5 x targets I do believe ol Daryl didn't want to rush the shooters; but did want the match to 'move right along'! :)  
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 07:46:10 PM by Roger Fisher »

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2011, 05:21:07 PM »
Yes, I need to change the rules & will. This set of rules was from the first year's attempt. Not having direct access to the web site causes some problems with changes to it.

Pictures were provided of shoots in the States for people to see what chunk rests looked like - indeed, for prizes the first year, I handed out 12 of them - this year, only 4 to first prize shooters.

The changes will reflect as people were informed this year, that people do not have to shoot a 'spotter' target. I made the rule on that because people had never shot this match before, and most people at rendezvous have no idea where their rifles are actually shooting. Shooting at steel plates on a normal trail breeds carelessness.

Too, we fired 5 shots on each of two scoring targets to attempt to speed up the process. I only have an afternoon to put on the match, from 1PM to about 4:30 - after which I need to measure and score all targets.  I ran one relay of 20 or maybe 21 shooters and one relay of 6 or 7. That takes time plus - 2 or 2 1/2 hours this year for scoring, with three of us doing it.

I thought I'd included no match rifles in the rules, only trail-walk or hunting rifles. The sights, I don't care about as many TC's and other production rifles with adjustable sights are shot by rendezvous competitors for me to not allow those. Note- no peep sights. Any open topped sights, ie: buckhorns, are OK. It's an original type, open sight for a hunting rifle.

I equate 'cant' blocks with match rifles. As match rifles are/were not supposed to be used in our ALR chunk matches, they are not allowed in the shoot I put on at Rendezvous BC.  I feel a direct need to 'contain' the match to close 'hunting rifle' parameters for the general shooter's benefit. Specialized equipment that pushes rules, defeats this 'hunting rifle' flavour  and ultimately ends up with rules being changed to allow other small changes to rifles due to this reason or that and ultimately deteriorates the shoot into a zip or space-gun match just as modern IPSC shooting has done over the years to the original shoot and it's intention by Jeff Cooper.

 This year, I allowed sitting, as complaints of not being able to get up and down abounded. Because I allowed it for some shooters, I had to allow anyone to shoot sitting - then cross-sticks for those who wanted to.  This didn't create any problems that I could see, however next year a new rule will be added - all shooting will be prone, no sitting.  

Too, everyone must load their own rifle behind the shooting positions. In the interest of having as many people compete as possible, I allowed one couple to work together - she stayed prone and he loaded for her. That won't happen next year. It was not fair to the other ladies who loaded their own rifles, getting down to shoot and up to load. The 'prone' lady didn't win and wasn't even close but other's were distressed that it was allowed. Distressed shooters are distracted shooters. I don't want that.

Too - in the Gary Cooper movie where he portrayed Alvin York, I didn't see any 'cant' blocks at the chunk shoot.

By all means use a cant block to teach you to hold your rifle level. for the match, it comes off.

Here are the chunk rests I gave out for 1st prize last year (leather covered centre rest) and 1st prize this year with plain centre rest.  The centre-rest is hemlock while the frame is hardrock maple.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 06:01:00 PM by Daryl »

Offline okieboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 822
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2011, 04:15:43 AM »
 Each shoot having rules that suit that group of shooters is a fine thing by me, each of these (even the York) is a local event with its own local color and flavor. If someone wants to put on a flintlock hunting rifle only shoot, sign me up! On the other hand in the location that I am in, I would happily shoot against in lines or Winchesters if they will use open sights.
 Thanks for explaining the idea behind the 2 shots on one target, now it makes sense.
 As for Gary Cooper, I think if you watch closely you will see at least one rifle with an integral cant block, it may only be visible during the turkey shoot, but the 6" wide strap on blocks that we see today are certainly a more recent part of the sport.
Okieboy

Offline KNeilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2011, 06:02:43 AM »
Okieboy, how many shots are put on the spotter at your matches? And then do you shoot individual scoring targets after?...  Thx..    Kerry

Offline smokinbuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3005
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2011, 06:12:53 AM »
Kerry,
I know you asked Okie but I'll stick my 2 cents in, hope you don't mind. At most matches there is a time limit on practice, not a specific number of shots before the match starts. If you can get 5 shots great, if you only get 2 shots in then that's what you use for your spotter group. A lot of matches shoot 1 shot at each target in order to get a more precise measurement than can be gotten if there are multiple shots and a ragged hole in the target.
Mark
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 06:14:23 AM by smokinbuck »
Mark

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2011, 06:19:23 AM »
Ken,what I believe Daryl had hoped for in the "chunk match" he sponsors and the big BC annual rendezvous, is to have people shoot with ordinary hunting rifles, resting over a chunk.  Chunk Shooting has become very specialized with special rifles, sights, and on and on...

But he has kept it very simple to make the playing field as level as possible while the games starts to evolve, and gain interest.

The ML rest rifle has been distorted over the last 100 years or so largely due to the often ugly iron mounted rifles that apparently appeared in east Tenn etc in the early 20th Century as match rifles. These rifles have engendered the myth that "chunk" rifles are supposed be at best plain.
This was not the case in the past.
See the heavy J&S Hawken Kentucky that weighes 15 pounds. There are a least two heavy flintlock rifles in Kindigs book 124 and 139.  139 has a full length sight shade. So heavy kentuckys do not have to look like they were made in a blacksmith shop.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline KNeilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2011, 06:44:08 AM »
Mark, of course I dont mind, and thx, that explains a lot to me. As well make more clear some of the things Ive read. What would be considered usual time for practice? ... thx.. Kerry

Offline Don Getz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6853
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2011, 04:24:04 PM »
That adjustable chunk is another one of my creations, now everybody has one like it.  Another thing on how to find the
sweet spot on your barrel, try this.    You must remove the barrel from the stock, then, holding the barrel by the tang,
start near the top and tap the barrel with a stick, hammer handle, anything.  It will vibrate, then move on down the barrel and do the same thing.   You will be amazed when you reach a point where the barrel will be "dead"...no vibration.   I
don't know if this is "the" sweet spot or not.   This spot will occur down near the muzzle, worth a try..............Don

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2011, 04:59:51 PM »
Along the same line as Don's post, which I will try tonight I think,  I have read of slug gun makers of the late 19th century with the breech fixed in a vise (?) putting a layer of powdered sugar on the top flat then striking the barrel to set up a vibration.
The sugar was supposed to form patterns that would show where the sweet spot was and this is where the rest was attached to the barrel.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2011, 05:09:48 PM »
Okieboy, how many shots are put on the spotter at your matches? And then do you shoot individual scoring targets after?...  Thx..    Kerry
We run pretty small numbers at matches and try to make sure everyone get a chance to shoot enough to know what is going on with the wind etc.  Especially since I drive 2.5.-3 hours to get there  ;)

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline okieboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 822
Re: shooting with a cant block
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2011, 07:54:19 PM »
 "Practice" in shoots that I've been to is usually three shots, but none are "required"; and some have had a "practice time", but the time was set by everyone being ready, especially if people were shooting in turn rather than all shooting at once. Shooting in turn is great at a smaller shoot, because you chat with the shooters ahead and behind you while waiting your turn; it also slow casual pace that I like. I've never shot more than one shot at an X.
 I thought Daryl's story about the women shooters being "distressed" was a point worth thinking about carefully. When we talk about a cant block, we are talking about managing the gun, but that may be a small matter compared to managing the gun's operater. Working out the ways to shoot calmly without stress is probably more important to shortening your string. All kinds of things can contribute to shooting stressed: too heavy a gun, too long a gun, a misfire, or (big one) not being in shape to lay down and get up with a gun 13 times. I was slightly distressed at my last shoot, because my ball/patch combination was way too tight (still working it out). Hope I'm not getting too far off topic, just trying to say that if the location on the barrel of your cant block is the biggest constraint in your accuracy, then I envy you!
Okieboy