Tried & True oil finishes

[Rootsy]

Was at a "local" Woodcraft store not long ago acquiring a few new chisels and wandered into the paint / varnish / oil area.  I noticed a product, actually 3, called Tried and True.  Three flavors: Straight Linseed (moderately polymerized - boiled?), highly polymerized Linseed + beeswax and finally an oil varnish (highly polymerized linseed + natural pine rosin).  

Anyone tried any of these products?  Thoughts?

http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/products.htm

[keweenaw]

I've used all of these on some different types of projects.  I don't find much use for the light oil - I think my can is called Danish oil.  The Varnish Oil will give a nice finish with many very thin coats.  I used it on a centerfire rifle that I wanted to do with an oil finish and it's worked and held up well.  I didn't build this up to the point that it looked like a varnish.  Mostly I've used the Original which is the one with the bee's wax in it.  It's very good for putting a bit more of a surface on the wood and touching up a finish that has gotten a bit dull.  Lots of wax in it so it water repels pretty well and it can always be easily touched up.  Take serious that extra little label on the lid that says "Apply Thin Coats"  You'll wait a long, long time for a moderate coat of varnish oil to dry.  You might try a couple coats of the Danish oil to get some penetration into the wood and then switch to the Original to give it some more surface and protection.

Tom

[Stophel]

The "Varnish Oil" does work, however, I think it is still too soft for a top coat.  It could stand to have more resin added.   

I put the oil and wax one on a wooden bowl, but I don't think it would do that well for rifle stocks.

[Stophel]

Oh, and as I understand it, this is "stand oil", which is put in glass covered copper trays in the sun, which "prepolymerizes" it.  Again, don't know that for a fact.

[Jim Kibler]

I've used the Tried and True Oil Varnish and I've been reasonably happy with it.  My feeling is that it is fine as a top coat.  Now it can't be compared to something such as Permalyn, but it doesn't look like it either.  I think it's more durable than you might think if very thin coats are applied and allowed to thoroughly cure.  Sunlight is almost required unless you are prepared to take a considerable time for finishing.  I tried to rub out a stock finished with this using rottenstone.  It didn't cut it so I went to steel wool.  It didn't cut it either, so ended up using some very fine scotchbrite with lubrication. 

[Rootsy]

I guess this was sort of a loaded question.  My latest creation is finished (at least partially at this point) with the oil varnish.  About 4 coats at the moment, over a period of about a week, strictly following the instructions from the manufacturer.  At the 4th coat it isn't absorbing and wiping off dry and tack free like previous coats.  You can feel a drag on the old t-shirt (clean). 

It doesn't quite have the build or the sheen I was hoping for (expecting) and I think I need to give the current finish some more time to cure before adding more "very thin" coats. 

It is definitely "in" the wood finish rather than an "on" the wood finish.  I assume the buffing with a soft cloth or 4/0 wool is to knock or move the finish off of the high points and into the valleys.  I have only used the 4/0 after the first coat and t-shirt buffing after subsequent.

Once cured (Hopefully a month and a half is long enough) I'd like to rub in beeswax.  Is that a feasible thing to accomplish to give it some moisture resistance?  Figured I'd just soften some beeswax and work it in with my hand.  I am always apprehensive with any wax as I hate the dry wax left behind in cracks and crevices that I can never seem to get rid of. 

[keweenaw]

Rootsy,

Try about 10 coats to get the finish up on the wood, no way four will do what you want. Once the surface is sealed, as yours is, each coat adds a micro thin addition to the surface.  The more coats you put on the better.  Or put the Original with the wax on.  You can put on a coat of that a day and with about 6 coats you'll have a nice finish up on the surface that will be far more durable than just adding wax.  The problem with straight wax at this point is that it isn't going to penetrate the wood, just put a layer of wax on the surface.  The Original finish will polymerize a surface that also traps and binds the wax to the surface.

Tom

[Rootsy]

So I can switch mid stream from one flavor to another?  I was apprehensive about that.  I guess I could have asked the manufacturer of the product. 

Incidentally, I was finishing some of the metal and was using a heat gun to warm the barrel as it laid across a piece of scrap maple clamped in my vise.  The maple had been blushed with aquafortis and had one heavy coat of the oil varnish on it.  I had let it sit over night, on the surface before wiping and buffing to a smooth, drag free, condition.  After that it had been sitting a day and a half before the heat gun came along.  I found that as I was passing down the barrel (and over the scrap wood beneath) that the oil varnish was being drawn, due to the heat, right out  of the cut grain (quilt) of the maple like it wasn't even cured but just soaked in. 

At this time, with 4 coats, it has a satin, maybe eggshell-ish, sheen.  I'll apply another coat tonight.  Warm weather and sunshine elude us currently in Michigan and the house is a paltry 62ish at the moment...

Nearest Woodcraft is just shy of 100 miles from me.  Guess I better switch to mail order and splurge on some of the traditional w/ beeswax in it. 

Gosh I am grateful for the knowledge and help available amongst the ranks here.

[smshea]

I agree with Jim, Ive used it a bunch but without sunlight it does take forever to dry. I have had good results with it before I moved into the forest where it seems the sun never shines . and they do mean VERY THIN  coats.

[Stophel]

Best to get the grain filled with shellac or a fast drying REAL boiled linseed oil   

I finished one gun with the Tried and True Varnish Oil.  It does dry, just takes a while, and ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES thin applications, and LOTS of sunlight!  I did use it as a top coat, and while it was OK, I did think it would be better if it was a bit harder.  As it is, I think it will "Mellow" VERY nicely   

[Rootsy]

I don't understand the need for sunlight in "drying" linseed oil.  Is it to elevate the surface temperature slightly to aid in oxidation of the oil?  Am I missing something?

[Stophel]

UV light is a requirement for polymerizing the linseed oil.  

This is why people who say "I tried linseed oil once, and it ran out when it got rained on, and I'll never try it again!".... They did the "flood and soak" method of stock oiling, the oil didn't dry, and naturally, since it was still liquid, ran out (usually taking some of their aniline dye---shudder---along with it!).

[bob in the woods]

I use , as  per my post re beeswax finish, a mix of beeswax and walnut oil on maple stocks, and pine furniture etc. Instead of making my own mix, I sometimes use the Tried and True stuff, and like it .
My N E fowling gun { Chambers} is finished with Tried and True oil/beeswax, and the Varnish oil.
The finish has great depth to it, as though you are looking right into the wood, and has held up to what nature has dished out up here over the last couple of years of hunting/shooting.

[Rich]

I've used it on several guns and am happy with the result. The "secret" to using it is printed in the instructions. Thin coats and at least 24 hours between coats, even if you think it's dry. If you try to rush the next coat, it will only replace the prior coat and put you 24 hours away from the next coat. 

[Jim Kibler]

If you try to rush the next coat, it will only replace the prior coat and put you 24 hours away from the next coat. 

I think your right about this Rich. Plus you end up with a softer finish.  With a sealed and burnished stock, I've had surface build up with just a few coats.  Probably depends on the wood to some degree as well.  I think the directions say to wipe with a cloth after applying the finish.  I just put the finish on thin and spread it as far as I can with my hands and they usually go over it with a soft paint brush to thin any heavy areas and get coverage in difficult places.  I'm pretty much convinced that the sun is the key though.  When I've used this finish in the winter, the process took much longer and the results didn't seem quite as good.  Probably because I pushed the process too fast.

[bob in the woods]

I found it helps to warm the finish a bit, too. The varnish is thick stuff, and that helps keep your application of finish thin.  The more sun the better.

[FL-Flintlock]

Oh, and as I understand it, this is "stand oil", which is put in glass covered copper trays in the sun, which "prepolymerizes" it.  Again, don't know that for a fact.

Yes, the vast majority of the retail store junk is "stand oil" but it's not the original type of stand oil.  The oil itself, unless specifically certified as being "first press" (very expensive), is extracted using chemical solvents.  The modern "stand" process is done by heating the oil in a vacuum chamber so the majority of the solvent used to extract the oil can be recovered.  The result is cheap partially heat polymerized oil that still has an amount of solvent retained in it and isn't polymerized enough to make much of a difference in the curing time which is also further retarded by the solvent residue.  The solvent residue is also responsible for the "gummy" or "soft" issues.

Pure Flaxseed oil will fully polymerize upon exposure to oxygen alone, UV light is not required.  The reason UV light is required with these cheap retail shelf oils is because of the solvent residue, the UV light helps to break it down so it releases the oil and then the oil can go about curing via exposure to O2.

Exposing Flaxseed oil to sunlight was only for the purpose of darkening it, UV light is not required for curing or the pre-polymerization of making true "stand oil".

[Chuck Burrows]

The T & T Oil Varnish uses no solvents - it is highly (heat) polymerized i.e. real boiled linseed oil with the addition of resins to make the varnish version. here's some info from their site:
http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/products.htm
IIRC they used to note that it was heated to 750° F, or I asked and was told that.......

I use it as a base for making a period style varnish - to make a harder finish I just add more resin as well as adding just a bit of white lead for color and drying - it does not need to be re-boiled just brought up hot enough to incorporate the extra resin and lead drier. The resin can also be incorporated without heat by dissolving it in real gum  turpentine - the thickened turp can be used or the regular, depending on your needs/desires. Such turpentine can be purchased from most better art suppliers.

As far as drying is concerned - yes light coats, but I have also found that moving air (I use a couple of fans - one on each side) speeds the drying to about half the normal time, and even faster if put in the sun - but I do live in an area with generally low humidity and intense sunlight since I live at 6500 ft ASL/

[FL-Flintlock]

The T & T Oil Varnish uses no solvents - it is highly (heat) polymerized i.e. real boiled linseed oil with the addition of resins to make the varnish version. here's some info from their site:
http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/products.htm
IIRC they used to note that it was heated to 750° F, or I asked and was told that.......

Anything other than first-press oil is solvent-extracted, no high volume producers use heated vats or steam extraction processes anymore because of the time and cost.  Once, or if, a first pressing is done, the Flax seeds, Tung nuts, Walnuts, ect. are ground into pulp to facilitate the solvent extraction process.  Solvent-extracted oil is run through a primary mechanical separation process then the secondary distillers where it’s processed into “stand oil” usually under vacuum where the temperature is slowly increased to 375-430°F as the bulk of the tramp solvent is driven off and the oil is brought to the desired level of polymerization.  There is always some residual solvent remaining in the oil from the extraction process following the stand process which is why the auto-ignition temperature of Flaxseed stand oil is typically at or below 466°F as opposed to the auto-ignition temperature of pure raw first-press Flaxseed/Linseed oil is around 548°F.  The end processor need not specifically add solvent to the oil, there is always some residual solvent remaining from the extraction process unless the oil is specifically certified as solvent-free first-press pure oil.  There’s a huge price difference between common solvent-extracted oils and certified first-press pure oil and considering the retail price for a gallon of T&T finish is less than the bulk wholesale price of first-press Flaxseed oil it doesn’t leave much to the imagination.  Not knocking it, just pointing out the facts such as why UV exposure is required to hasten the curing process.
Mark

[JCKelly]

One may get real cold-pressed linseed oil at artists' supply houses, such as www.dickblick.com   One may also buy real stand oil there. Yes, cold pressing & artists' stand oil is more expensive THAN STUFF USED FOR HOUSE PAINTING but it is no more expensive, indeed less so, than various comercial stock finishes. For description of linseed oil see The Artist's Handbook of Materials and Techniques, 5th Edition, Revised and Updated by Ralph Mayer. This is The source for such information.

Commercial gunstock finishes may or may not be preferred for what you are doing. If you intend to use actual linseed oil, go to an art supply store. Dick Blick happens to be my choice for internet purchase.

[Jim Kibler]

Well, I'm no authority on finishes, but anytime I've used a linseed based finish I've found sunlight to be beneficial.  This goes for Kettenburg's Oil, the Tried and True and ordinary hardware stuff.  I expect any linseed finish a gunbuilder is likely to encounter will follow this pattern.  I'll trust experience.