Ramrod channel length vs. ramrod length

[Model19]

After doing other projects this summer it's time get my fowler project going.  I've been lurking for a week, getting my head back in the game.   Here's my most vexing question currently.
I have 41" of usable rod channel as supplied on my pre-carve.  The breech end of the channel ends in a taper so the rod does not go all the way to the end. 
I have a 42" barrel.
I have a 49" wooden ramrod.
Lock is inlet but the lock bolts are NOT in place. It looks like I will not have room for a forward lock bolt either. Just not enough room between the barrel and the rod when in the channel.

So..   do I:
A) Lengthen the provided rod channel as far to the breech "wall" at the tang area as I can
B) Carve out the rod channel to lower the rod away from the barrel to hopefully fit a forward bolt
C) Both of the above and anything else I missed that you folks might suggest.

Is it permissible to have the ramrod when in place project beyond the muzzle a bit?  I want enough rod length obviously so that I'm not holding onto the last inch when I'm loading or cleaning.

Thanks for any advice.  I've been looking back over the last years worth of posts and have learned a lot just by dong that.

Geoff

[keweenaw]

The ramrod channel can go down as far as the pinning lug on the front of the guard.  I usually stop just short of the lug to keep a bit more strength there.  But you need to taper the end of your rod so that it will bottom in your current hole.  3/8" rods usually get tapered to about 5/16".  This helps with getting under the front lock bolt if it slightly nicks the ramrod hole as well as just generally making it easier to get the rod in and out of the stock - particularly when the humidity changes and the stock and rod swell.  I wouldn't do anything else until I had tapered the rod to get it to the bottom of the hole, and tapering the rod is a whole lot easier than doing anything else!

Tom 

[rich pierce]

I use the trigger guard lug as a stop.  If you have enough wood below the lock don't hesitate to force the ramrod to go under the front lock bolt by chiseling the channel deeper and using a spoon-shaped spring to force it down.  The red arrowhead shows a staple that acts as a lever for the spring to work against.



It's also possible to make a scraper that will do this from the ramrod hole.  This was probably the first form of minimally invasive surgery.     Use drill rod maybe 3/16" round and 18" long.  Bend the cutting end over a little to a lip and make a sharp, round scraper face there.  It still has to be, complete with offset, a really easy entrance into the ramrod hole.  On the other end bend a dogleg for a handle.  Now insert it and get it all the way to the bottom of the hole, lever on it to make the scraper bear against the bottom (or side if needed) and withdraw shavings.  Tedious but it can work.

[bgf]

I can't add anything to Snyder's advice except to say that you can also get a little bit of extra length to work with if you have a screw-on tip.  For loading, the length isn't that important (bore length is fine, because the load takes up some space), but if you want to wipe the bore, a (long if necessary) jag will give you enough to hold on to, even if the rod is the exact length of the bore.

Note that I'm no expert, just have agonized over the same problem, and it always seems to work out.  You want the tip flush with the muzzle for the glamor shots most times, but in use a little overhang doesn't cause any problems, at least on a rifle, might be different for a fowling piece?  Also, try to get at least bore length by tapering the rod and/or cleaning out the hole; it makes life a lot simpler.  

[Stophel]

Ok, how much space do you actually have between the barrel and ramrod hole?  Is it a swamped barrel or straight?  You need to get out your rulers and depth gauges and squares and you need to very accurately draw on the lock side of the stock the exact locations of the bottom of the barrel and the ramrod hole.  You can drill a "witness hole" inside the barrel channel to help determine the position of the ramrod hole.

I am surprised that a precarve has a tapered ramrod hole!!!!  I do this on mine on purpose with a tool that I made (and took me forever to make it!)

Anyway, you need to know PRECISELY where the rod is before proceeding.

  And the rod hole should be drilled deeper.  I run mine all the way to the breech end of the barrel... and even a tad deeper if I can get away with it.  Like Rich, I like to butt my ramrod up to the triggerguard tenon.

I made a ramrod hole scraper to move one UP, believe it or not (I had it drilled undersize, as I do all of them...).  Just took a 1/4" steel rod and pounded the end over just a little bit to make a scraper "hook", and not much of one at that.  I wailed away at it, thinking I wasn't doing much, but stopped and checked and was amazed at how far I had cut!   

[Black Hand]

Sometimes, it may be necessary to cut a half-moon in the front lock bolt to get rod clearance ("cheat" the bolt to the barrel side).  I also drill my hole to nearly the trigger-guard lug to get more length.

While it may seem attractive to leave extra rod extending past the muzzle, too much is a pain, will catch on everything and will be burned by muzzle-flash.

[Acer Saccharum]

I like to drill mine as deep as I can get it. I'll run it right up against the guard tenon.

[Roger Fisher]

I like to drill mine as deep as I can get it. I'll run it right up against the guard tenon.

I just erased a whole speil on this... Anyway, that guard lug can be cut 'back' some for a bit more room, taper said rod, get a longer jag for carrying in your kit, file the frt bolt thinner in the middle, of course use the thinist bolt you can get hold of (even a 6 if need be) You are only holding the lock in it's nicely fitted mortise.  Keep us posted.

[Jim Kibler]

I don't think it's been mentioned, but it is perfectly acceptable to cut a groove in the bottom of the barrel to help with front lock bolt clearance.  There is of course a limit to what this can be cut, but oftentimes just a shallow groove will help with clearance issues.  I wouldn't excavate from the barrel channel.  There are certainly fixes for your issue, if there is one.

Jim

[bgf]

Also, make sure the RR hole really is tapered and not just filled with shaving and dust!  You can put a little hook on a stiff wire and loosen it up if that is the problem; turn the gun upside down and "burp" the pieces out.  I hate to mention it, because it sounds so silly, but I will admit it happened to me -- couldn't figure out why the perfect length rr was too long after assembly !

[smshea]

He  has a pre-carve and says the back of the CHANNEL is tapered. Are we talking about another routed hole where there is run out at the breech end? If that is the case, just excavate back to the breech wall or square it up and use a RR drill if you have one.

[wmrike]

I usually neck down the sideplate bolt a bit.  I haven't yet had to do that plus put a nick in the bottom of the barrel.

[Tim Crosby]

 This may help: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=258.msg2584#msg2584

 Tim C.

[Model19]

Wow! That was a voluminous reply in no time flat!  
All good advice.   The ramrod channel in this stock is open at the top as in Rich's picture above. I can easily carve/shave it back to the breech/tang flat and deepen it as well in that section.  I have not measured yet to see just how deep I can go before i break out the bottom of the stock but I'll of course measure that before ido anything.
It was good to learn that a rod length close to bore length is common.  I was unsure of that and it was a worry.
One more question:  How vital is a front lock screw?  I'm pretty sure i can get the other two fitted although the rear looks tricky as usual.  
This really is a 3 dimensional puzzle between lock screws, tang bolt and trigger internals, barrel and RR channel.      

[Stophel]

Ok, the rod "hole" is routed out from the inside.  Actually makes it easier to work with at this point.

How much space do you actually have between the barrel and rod?  You only need an eighth inch or so for the screw to go through.  The barrel can be notched a bit, if necessary (don't go up towards the barrel too much, it can wreak havoc with the sideplate...), and the screw can be notched a bit to clear the ramrod, if necessary.  Both are pretty common procedures.

If you think you still need more room between the rod and barrel, this type of ramrod "hole" is easy to get at and cut a bit lower.  I used to do them this way, actually, before I got the hang of drilling rod holes (and it's still the most difficult thing in the world for me to do).  I would cut it out from the inside, and once it was at proper depth, I would then make a piece of wood fit back in, filling in the "web" between the barrel and rod, making the wood solid again.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I once fit a Davis Late Ketland flintlock to a Pedersoli percussion rifle.  The plate had to be filed down a lot to approach the dimensions of the old percussion plate, and in doing so, there was no room forward of the mainspring for the forward screw.  The lock was held securely by the rear one, so I just riveted a screw head to the side plate to take the forwards screw's place.  I riveted it rather than solder it in, so that if the owner forgot and tried to turn it out, it would just turn rather than sheer off.

[Collector]

As suggested, by others, cutting a shallow 'groove' or 'half-moon' in the forward lock bolt is a fairly common fix and not at all frowned upon by the builders of today or those of 'yesteryear's.'

If this is the 'fix' that you arrive at for your solution, it's particularly helpful (I think) to put a small 'indexing' mark (filed 'v' notch,) at 6 o'clock, on the tightened bolt head, so that you don't have to 'guess' where the groove is, in relation to your ramrod.  (Note: index the head first and it'll help you put the groove in exactly the right place and on the proper plane.)

Just one of those small things that makes life less complicated and more enjoyable, long after your project is completed.

Good luck!!

[brobb]

As suggested, by others, cutting a shallow 'groove' or 'half-moon' in the forward lock bolt is a fairly common fix and not at all frowned upon by the builders of today or those of 'yesteryear's.'

If this is the 'fix' that you arrive at for your solution, it's particularly helpful (I think) to put a small 'indexing' mark (filed 'v' notch,) at 6 o'clock, on the tightened bolt head, so that you don't have to 'guess' where the groove is, in relation to your ramrod.  (Note: index the head first and it'll help you put the groove in exactly the right place and on the proper plane.)

Just one of those small things that makes life less complicated and more enjoyable, long after your project is completed.

Good luck!!

If you do this, don't forget to remove your ramrod before you remove your lock!

[Model19]

Thanks again for all the help.   I got some time in on it today and took measurements and did some work.   Currently I have 3/16" from the top of the RR to the bottom of the barrel inlet.   I also have 1/4" of material below the RR groove and the exterior of the stock bottom.
 I enlarged the full length of the RR grove today, lessening the kink where the RR groove enters the stock proper as well.  I also got rid of the ramp at the tail end of the groove near the breech.   My Foredom tool with the correct size carbide bit made quick work of leveling the bottom and making a nice neat end to the groove.  I also lowered the groove floor a bit with that same tool, but I have not measured it to see the clearance I gained.  The RR now slides easily down the full length of the channel.   I'll measure tomorrow and go a bit lower on the floor if need be.

I also started to inlet the tang.  That was interesting.  I have the big breech lug full inlet and the tang inlet enough that the barrel sits almost flat in it's channel.  More tomorrow on this too.   I need to cut the tang shorter and bend it.  Any tips on the bending process? 

[Meteorman]

I wouldn't inlet the tang any more before your done shortening and bending it !

I stick about 1/2-to-2/3 of the tang in my vise, barrel straight up, and use the barrel as a lever to slightly bend the tang.
Easy does it.
You'll want to sneak up on the right radius, not go back and forth.





This curvature will largely determine your breech-to-wrist profile, so plan ahead.
It doesn't have to perfectly match your existing pre-carve profile, because your most likely going to be re-shaping this area a bit later on. 
At that time, you can rasp away wood and then file wood and the top of the tang together to keep things flush.
Every time you bend it back and forth, the tang lengthens a tiny amount, so work to minimize that.
Keep inletting tang until you are sure your barrel breech is down on wood - use transfer medium.
/MM