Sealing the stock

[Jerry V Lape]

After carving the decoration and staining the wood (in this case with Ferric Nitrate/water) what do you use as the first coat or two for purposes of sealing the wood?

[tallbear]

Jerry
I use seed-lac.

Mitch

[Dphariss]

After carving the decoration and staining the wood (in this case with Ferric Nitrate/water) what do you use as the first coat or two for purposes of sealing the wood?

Real boiled linseed oil thinned with aged real Turpentine. Maybe some Grumbachers Oil Painting Medium III added 50-50 to the oil. Apply heavily let set an hour, reapply to dry spots let set for a hour or so then wipe dry. Give it maybe a day. If placed in the sun it will require wiping as the stock heats since oil will ooze from the pores as the wood heats, this is my choice. Once the first coat is sets over night or less if exposed to the sun when its warm, this is usually no longer a factor.

Dan

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

1# cut of dewaxed garnet shellac..........

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

I use Chambers Traditional Oil Finish, brush coat let set about a half hour then wipe of excess and let dry. After that it goes on a drop at a time hand rubbed in.

[Stophel]

depends on the finish I want.  Either real boiled linseed oil (that I boiled myself) or a lac, I usually use button lac, which has worked well for me.  Sometimes I throw a little mastic in with the button lac.  Theoretically, it makes it more elastic, but I doubt it matters.

And I don't know if I'd call it "sealing", but rather "filling the grain".   

[Blacksmoke]

I saturate the stock with a solution of thick Tung oil which has been cut 50/50 with turp. or japan dryers.  I apply to all inlets, barrel channel and of course the outside of the stock as well.   This process can take as many as 10 applications and it might take a week to be fully saturated to the point that the wood will not "drink' any more.  The more you can seal your stock the less moisture will have an effect on it in the field.       Hugh Toenjes

[LRB]

  I like Permalyn Sealer. It is very thin, soaks in deep, and hardens up overnight. I have even used it as a finish with very impressive results. It dries hard and tough. If I remember correctly, John Bivins used it.

[Dphariss]

  I like Permalyn Sealer. It is very thin, soaks in deep, and hardens up overnight. I have even used it as a finish with very impressive results. It dries hard and tough. If I remember correctly, John Bivins used it.

But its plastic, is too hard and will not move with the wood. No elasticity according to a well versed friend.

Dan

[bob in the woods]

Correct me if I am wrong, but- is not Permalyn just a polyurathane finish ? 

[Dphariss]

Correct me if I am wrong, but- is not Permalyn just a polyurathane finish ? 

Its brittle plastic finish that, according to reports, will eventually crack if exposed to temperature extremes.
It was used originally to give a fast cheap varnish finish so guns could be finished on a time table by people who did not understand traditional varnish formulations or application or the durability issues.

Dan

[Jim Kibler]

Dan,

I don't believe your concerns regarding the performance of Permalyn are valid.  I believe it's about the best finish available from a performance point of view.  In saying this, I'm not considering what its composition is at all, just how it performs in my experience.  I don't think it being brittle is any concern.  Especially if used in the wood as a sealer.  It is tough, durable, and extremely water resistant.

That said, my biggest issue with Permalyn is it's appearance.  It just doesn't have the same look to me that a traditional oil finish has.  Tinting can help this to some degree however. 

As a sealer, I don't think it can be beaten.

[Vomitus]

Hello,
  When using Permalyn as a sealer,are you limited to the kind of top coat finish?

[Jerry V Lape]

Jim,

Will Permalyn work under the oil finish.  I wish I had taken better notes at the class on Ian's process. 

[Jim Kibler]

In my experience, you can use just about any stock finish over the Permalyn.

[Stophel]

For filling grain, I don't think elasticity (or lack thereof) is a big deal. I mean, shellac (seedlac/buttonlac/rubylac/etc) is NOT very elastic, and it works fine.  It's just filling the tiny individual pores with a little glob of stuff.

I will agree (naturally  ) that polyurethane and other modern varnishes look "plasticky" and do not have the warm look that old natural type finishes have.

I have no personal experience with using polyurethanes.  I have avoided their use because of their notoriety for cracking and flaking off as a surface varnish.  Have seen it myself, many years ago, and have avoided using them ever since.  Supposedly, they have been improved over the years, but I have not felt the urge to give them another go.   

[Vomitus]

   Thanks for that tid bit Jim K.

[Dphariss]

Dan,

I don't believe your concerns regarding the performance of Permalyn are valid.  I believe it's about the best finish available from a performance point of view.  In saying this, I'm not considering what its composition is at all, just how it performs in my experience.  I don't think it being brittle is any concern.  Especially if used in the wood as a sealer.  It is tough, durable, and extremely water resistant.

That said, my biggest issue with Permalyn is it's appearance.  It just doesn't have the same look to me that a traditional oil finish has.  Tinting can help this to some degree however. 

As a sealer, I don't think it can be beaten.

Given what I have been told by a very well informed friend concerning the finish on one of the Bivins PA guns that was crazed so bad it glittered in the sun from a distance . Brittle means when the wood moves the finish does not and it then fails.
Paint some on a piece of wood and leave it out side all winter in the sun, snow etc. Boiled linseed oil mixed with the Grumbachers I have previously mentioned will stand this all winter in Montana with no damage.
The brittle plastic used on Remingtons for a time was a running joke. If you brought one into a heated room from the cold you HEAR the finish break.
Wood finish must be ELASTIC, even "flexible" as defined in the coating industry is not good enough.
The MSDS says its plastic. Its a hard "waterproof" finish. This invariably means it will BREAK if placed on wood since the wood always MOVES.  If the wood moves and the brittle finish can't move with it the FILM FAILS. When the film fails the finish is then "transparent to water".
Even when used only as a sealer synthetics alter the wood to a synthetic look to get most advantage from a natural oil finish it needs to be used as sealer as well since that it where the oil penetrates the wood and enhances the grain. This is especially true of Walnut.

But people insist on believing lables. The board with finish applied exposed to the elements in the back yard for 3-6 months is the real test.
Dan

[Jim Kibler]

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree Dan.  I have absolutely no fear of cracking or crazing if used in a reasonable manner.  There have been MANY guns finished with this material and I have't seen a single example of cracking or crazing.  I have seen quite a number of Bivins, Mandarino, Silver rifles etc. where Permalyn was primarily used and  I've never seen evidence of finish failure due to cracking etc. 

As mentioned previously, it has it's good points as a sealer and finish, but has limitations as well.  In my view the limitations have to do with appearance.   This is just my view however.

Perhaps Bill Shipman will chime in hear as he is a big proponent of Permalyn.  I would guess he has been using it for probably close to 30 years.  I know some of his guns have been used hard.  In speaking with him, he has nothing but praise for it.

Show me and example of failure and you can say "I told you so"

[Dphariss]

Here is one other point. Lac will seal a stock. But it was not used for spar on ships for example. They used oil based varnish.
While its possible to use all sorts of things for sealing and finishing gunstocks all the modern stuff other than those comprised primarily of oil are solvent based. Toxic solvents in most cases. Some are 50-60% or more solvent. So if you use them especially for top coats that due to the high solvent content take a lot of coats and thus time to achieve means more solvent exposure. I decided a long time ago this was a bad idea.
Linseed will seal wood just fine and in fact may work better on end grain than the thin watery stuff.
With walnut using a thin watery sealer just increases the time to finish the stock.
The trouble some people go to to finish a stock is just astounding. But I used to do the same thing. But "Ogre" gave me an alternative and I have never looked back.
Regardless of the conventional "wisdom" on stock finishing that has be promoted for decades in books and magazines, properly prepared linseed oil is faster and easier than modern solvent laden varnishes.
I have used both and would never go back to a solvent based stock finish.

I have been looking for a MSDS for the stock finish/sealer but can't find one.
However, based on other oil modified plastic wood finishes (varathane) its likely at least 50% Stoddard Solvent.

Dan

[JDK]

I have to agree with at least one thing Mr. Phariss was alluding too.  A couple of centuries ago they must have used finishes that could be applied and put into service in a timely manner.  Hearing what some posters say they go through when finishing a stock....coat, wipe, dry, repeat, repeat, etc. over a period of days and days.....I find it hard to believe that the builders of old, even if they had apprentices would go to such lengths when they were building rifles for a living for people who's livelyhood and lives depended on getting them sooner than later.  Moving rifles across the bench in a workman like manner only to spend days/weeks finishing them.  Maybe I just don't get it.  I understand they had different rifles in different stages of the build around but, as today, time is money and this was their living.  JM2C, J.D.K.

[Dphariss]

First its a preference thing I guess.

We have to address some things though from my standpoint at least.
First I know what a PITA stock finishing can be and how people will hang on to something they can make work.
Then.
What are the advantages.
What are the disadvantages.
Since its impossible to seal a wooden stock and make it stable the argument for waterproofing is not valid. If it were possible to waterproof gunstocks and keep them stable the modern trend of plastic stocks would not exist at least not the the extent it does.
Wood will always breath and to will always be relatively unstable.

So we have to ask what IS the reasoning?
Easier to use, not really, probably the opposite for a decent finish, makes the stock look better, no. Less harmful to the stock finisher, no. Solvents are bad news in all respects. The high solvent content means 1/2 of the material applied evaporates. So its slow to fill the pores of the stock this is why they sell "fillers" for walnut to overcome the shortcomings of the finishes they sell. Every modern varnish has about 40-60% volatiles. Plastic, tung oil etc etc all the same it seems.
The reason for using it comes, for the most part, from the desire of someone selling the stuff to sell the stuff. How suitable it REALLY is matters not at all.
A good finish that anyone can make in his own shop for a fraction of what the factory mades cost by the ounce is not what is needed, buy the varnish sellers anyway.

The side benefits of a real oil/oil varnish is that its traditional, if made right its easy to use. Dries pretty good. Looks good on or in the wood. Since its heavier bodied it finishes in less time than the thin stuff does. This I KNOW.

The thing that really surprises me is that people will go to great lengths to laboriously make springs from old truck springs, gravers from old files, agonize over the preparation of the wood. Should it be  scraped or sanded? How smooth should the carving background be? Do we smooth it too much? Do we over polish trigger guards and barrels? Should we leave file marks on the lock? Then after all this nit picking they will stain with something that is synthetic, possibly not totally color fast, requires 3-4 coats of different colors to get it "right" when traditional is easy to use, solvent free, safe, color fast and produces the right color to boot.

Then they order some solvent laden synthetic finish that has no advantage over the traditional finish. In fact they can BUY pretty good finishes that are almost all oil. Chambers, which a knowledgeable friend called me about today having tried it, seems to be pretty good. I have read pretty good reports of Tried and True Oil Varnish and it reads pretty good, being, it seems much like the old gunstock varnish.

Neither seem to be loaded with solvents. Both are mostly oil. Whats not to like?

Except they probably will not work like varathane or a host of other lumber yard made for the lowest common denominator consumer refinishing his interior trim or a coffee table which is what a lot of this stuff is mildly disguised or not. But its what people are used to I guess.

I will try to get some info on the crackle finish report might take some phone calls.
I still wish someone would do the back yard test...

Preference?
After using a lot of solvent laden varnish on stocks I prefer oil based stock finish rather than Stoddard Solvent or similar bases. I don't have to put a fan in the window when using linseed oil based finishes.

Dan

[Kevin Houlihan]

Dan,

I don't believe your concerns regarding the performance of Permalyn are valid.  I believe it's about the best finish available from a performance point of view.  In saying this, I'm not considering what its composition is at all, just how it performs in my experience.  I don't think it being brittle is any concern.  Especially if used in the wood as a sealer.  It is tough, durable, and extremely water resistant.

I finished a BP Cartridge Rifle stock in curly Maple with both Permalyn Sealer and Permalyn Stock Finish 15 years ago.  It has held up wonderfully.  This rifle was my main silhouette gun for 11 of those years and was shot at least once a month all 12 months.  I live in New England, so the rifle sees 100+ temps w/ high humidity, down to -10 with no humidity, rain, snow you name it. I've also recently had an opportunity to see a gun the I built as a prize and finished w/ Permalyn 14 years ago and it's still going strong.  I read the concerns about Permalyn from who I think is Dan's source, and although those concerns may have been his experience, I have had nothing but good luck with the product.  To each his own...
Kevin

[fastfrankie]

What I use is Waterlox (the original sealer/finish in the red can) it is a tung oil based finish.

[Jim Kibler]

Dan,

Some time ago, Bill Shipman described finishing samples and exposing them to outdoor elements for extended periods of time.  The jist of his findings was that the Permalyn outperformed all others.  A search might find mention of this.

Other finishes might look better and more appropriate in my view, but in terms of performance, I think its hard to beat this finish.

For me the difficulty with finishing lies in the fact that there is always this fight between performance and appearance.  

Jim