Is Hodgdon 777 in FFFG a good alternative for black powder?

[bgf]

Pyrodex and 777 are completely different powders; pyrodex does have potassium perchlorate, but T7 maybe not so much, if any at all.  This post by Mad Monk sums up the subs pretty well:
  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8283.msg78615#msg78615

I believe that later research by MM has changed this finding.
Flash some on a cleaned and polished steel plate using a hot wire for ignition.
Then expose it to the air for a day or so.
Try the same test at the same time with BP fouling. Just be sure not the cross contaminate the samples
Dan

Dan,
First, they very well could have changed the formula (I vaguely recall reading something to that effect), making it either more or less corrosive.  I certainly don't doubt Daryl's case corrosion either, although it doesn't correlate well with the other information; perhaps it was a different formula or something like that?

I'm willing to try an experiment and put the results up, and encourage others to do the same.  One addition I would propose is a second group of plates "fired", let sit for a couple of hours then cleaned and oiled, and perhaps that test could be repeated twice a week for a month or something like that, to simulate use?  I really would like to know the truth of this matter, and it doesn't affect me emotionally either way, though I feel there is a little bit of a reactionary, emotional response any time these substitutes are mentioned.  As many have already brought up, BP is not getting easier to acquire, and I for one will burn Pyrodex (note this is a hypothetical last resort) and change barrels every year if that is what it takes to keep shooting, but it would be nice to get an idea of the alternatives before we are forced to adopt one based on necessity.  Perhaps, in a twisted way having an alternative makes BP more viable, if for some unknown reason the BP ban were to be senseless and based on ulterior motives, although of course that could never happen in America ! 

[Daryl]

I have no iron in this fire, either. I want to kow if it is not corrosive -ie: the marketer (Hodgdon makes NO powder- they sell it only) says this, "not as corrosive as black powder fouling" - I do not trust them, nor do I trust most mfg'rs. I already know chlorates are bad - perchlorates contains something like double or triple the oxygen of normal cholorate or something like that so more oxygen means to me, MORE oxidation, so I assume they are worse.  What exactly does the per in trichlorate mean as opposed to chlorate. I asked a company if their phony powder had chlorates in it, no, they said in direct mail to me.  Hodgdon then had it noted in an article in their manual,  which said it contained perchlorate.  So - no it doesn't have chlorate, it has perchlorate - see, they didn't lie - in their own mind - no, it wasn't Hodgdon.  But see what I mean about mfgrs'? Which manufacturer doesn't make the biggest, fastest, slowest, cheapest, longest, whatever-est THING- just trust them, they wouldn't lie to you.

 Obviously, I'm not a chemist.  There are some things we know - we know chlorate primers (pre-non-corrosive primers)are corrosive - as they are/were blamed for rotting barrels for decades - oh no, corrosive primers - pitted the full length of the bore to deep pits full length - they then said, you have to clean with urine if no water available, etc, etc. Oils will not neutralize the corrosiveness of chorate fouling.  People then as today, used motor oil - good stuff, yes - for your motor not so good for the rifle - the back-hills lubes were and even today, are used across North America. People think oil is oil.

So - how much chlorate is in a single rifle or shotgun primer - compared to how much cholorate or perchlorate in a 100gr. charge of phony powder? Remember, it's a powder that derives it's strength from the chlorates - OK - sorry -   trichlorates?  That's the sort of thing that gives me cause for pause.  Maybe it was bad in ctg. guns because the people who owned them, didn't clean them properly - as we clean our BP guns- right- we all removed the barrels and flush clean? hmmm = =   Of course, I well remember the gun writers telling us that Pyrodex (which also has chlorates or  trichlorates) was not only like a smokeless for black, you didn't have to clean your gun after shooting it, it shot so cleanly. Well, we know how THAT went. Makes good copy and sells a LOT of phony powder - for a while.

What's good and what isn't?

We come to rely on people like MMonk - Ogre - people who've done the tests without a monetary iron in the fire.

I'm open to hearing some of the 'new' tests.

How about, how does the phony powder effect the various barrel steels commonly used - ie: how does it effect the various alloys and chemicals inside the steels?

[sirdutch]

You guys have a lot of passion on the subject and I'm learning a lot. With all the talk by some on changing out barrels as a result of using corrosive powders, I was wondering how I would change out a barrel on my rifle. Do these things come in standard sizes? I don't know who made my rifle as I bought it from a friend who bought it at an auction many years ago. It is not a production rifle. I need to take care of her.

I'm thinking that I need to buy more Goex. I bought 3 lbs. today at the only local supplier in a three county area here in Southern California. Maybe I need to go back for more.



Meindert

[Dphariss]

Pyrodex and 777 are completely different powders; pyrodex does have potassium perchlorate, but T7 maybe not so much, if any at all.  This post by Mad Monk sums up the subs pretty well:
  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8283.msg78615#msg78615

I believe that later research by MM has changed this finding.
Flash some on a cleaned and polished steel plate using a hot wire for ignition.
Then expose it to the air for a day or so.
Try the same test at the same time with BP fouling. Just be sure not the cross contaminate the samples
Dan

Dan,
First, they very well could have changed the formula (I vaguely recall reading something to that effect), making it either more or less corrosive.  I certainly don't doubt Daryl's case corrosion either, although it doesn't correlate well with the other information; perhaps it was a different formula or something like that?

I'm willing to try an experiment and put the results up, and encourage others to do the same.  One addition I would propose is a second group of plates "fired", let sit for a couple of hours then cleaned and oiled, and perhaps that test could be repeated twice a week for a month or something like that, to simulate use?  I really would like to know the truth of this matter, and it doesn't affect me emotionally either way, though I feel there is a little bit of a reactionary, emotional response any time these substitutes are mentioned.  As many have already brought up, BP is not getting easier to acquire, and I for one will burn Pyrodex (note this is a hypothetical last resort) and change barrels every year if that is what it takes to keep shooting, but it would be nice to get an idea of the alternatives before we are forced to adopt one based on necessity.  Perhaps, in a twisted way having an alternative makes BP more viable, if for some unknown reason the BP ban were to be senseless and based on ulterior motives, although of course that could never happen in America ! 

If they changed it I would think there would be a new patent.
Besides the MSDS shows Potassium Perchlorate.
Given my experiences in testing and guns that have been used with T-7s more corrosive brother I have no interest in either. Then there are the horror stories passed on to me by others. Especially those that believed the gun writers who wrote it was "non-corrosive".
So far as "mirror" bores used with Pyrodex. For me this would be a first since driving from the range to home to clean is enough to set up etching. But as I stated most people don't know what the initial stages look like and would not recognize it except with magnification.
In TCs with their fouling traps I am sure I can find some corrosion if the breech was removed or a bore scope used. Its amazing what you can find in a "mirror" bore if you really look. Even a brand new one.
Dan

[bob in the woods]

Years ago [ about 18 !!!!]  I wrote to Sam Fadala about my experience with the then popular alternate.
Clean well, come back the next day and get a dirty patch. Clean again, come back the next day and still get a brownish patch , and on and on. I kept the patches over the course of a week of this, stapled to a sheetof paper...the first patch down the bore for a week. That is how long it took to get a clean patch.
It was as though the stuff had gotten into the metal itself. Since I had been using it for a year, it probably had.  If I had to use the stuff, I'd clean " rigorously" and immediately.

[Dphariss]

So far as "mirror" bores used with Pyrodex. For me this would be a first since driving from the range to home to clean is enough to set up etching. But as I stated most people don't know what the initial stages look like and would not recognize it except with magnification.
In TCs with their fouling traps I am sure I can find some corrosion if the breech was removed or a bore scope used. Its amazing what you can find in a "mirror" bore if you really look. Even a brand new one.
Dan

Well, I'm convinced that you're convinced...special high magnification equipment, labratory testing and all that, etc.

But the rest of us mere mortals simply live with day-to-day reality...and reality seems to be that hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of hunters/shooters have used Pyrodex for almost a quarter of a century without this concern having become a national issue.

And while thoughts of testing this or that on a steel plate, possibly leaving it outside in the elements on a picnic table for two weeks untouched might sound impressive, its not reality...not real world...nobody treats a ML like that.

And yes...I kept my bores looking like a mirror...that you can take to the bank...steaming hot soapy water...same principle as a dishwasher.
   

Pull the breech or bore scope.  LOOK. Did the bluing disappear from the bore? Did it get very white looking?
Yes hot water IS the only treatment that works. But as I stated in the previous post even dwell time between shots at the range or travel time can cause problems. A magnifying glass or Optivisor is all that is needed. But the person has to LOOK.
I worked in the field of BP arms as professional, startng 30 year ago, in fact I still do, I know what the stuff does and you are not the first person to make the "my gun is not damaged" claim. Its the mantra. But in most cases probably 90% plus they are wrong on even casual examination.
This is not new. There was a writeup about a bore ruined OVERNIGHT when the owner postponed cleaning because he was taking his wife out and instead dosed the bore with original Hoppe's #9. By the next morning he needed a new barrel. This appeared in Rifle or Handloader Magazine probably before most people here ever heard of the stuff.
There are large numbers of mass produced rifles out there, TCs and others with damage that precludes using BP since the rougher bores foul horribly with BP and once pitted the process is unstoppable.
I know an EXTEMELY experienced guy who used it in a 1869 TD Springfield and it took a YEAR of cleaning to get the after rust stopped. This was maybe 15 years ago.
A friend used to work in a gunstore in CA. They shot a Ruger Old Army with the stuff and did not clean it. It was widely "known" the be NC at the time. In a week or so the cylinder would not turn. Yeah they should have cleaned it. But BP will not do this in this time frame.

Dan

[Vomitus]

Mr Meindirt,
  I'd just stick to the black. I've followed this thread from the beginning and am convinced that the subs are probably more a PITA then anything. Save up some coin,buy some Goex in bulk and blaze away! A 25lb box lasts me better then a year,and I shoot lots. Good luck in your quest.

[James]

My 2-cents:    I had no BP experience and was not aware of forums when I ordered my "kit", the seller stated he used Pyrodex, "Works great in my flintlock" he says so I bought a $#@* load of Pyrodex RS and a temp. flintlock to use until my "kit" was done. I put an L&R lock in the gun to give reliable spark, only to find, with Goex FFFFg in the pan, that the Pyrodex was going off 80% of the time and always with a substantial lag. I switched to black powder and the gun goes off when desired now. That's just my personal experience.

[bgf]

Dan and Daryl,
I agree about the potassium perchlorate in 777 MSDS.  Monk acknowledged that in the post I linked to, but said he couldn't find much of any of it, and that it didn't pit the plates (brass or steel)?  Since all I remember about high school chemistry is that my lab partner was a cheerleader (sadly, she was a senior and I was a tubby sophomore; at least she was friendly and smart to boot -- an honor to that short skirt), I can't add to his chemical analysis.  I would think the percentage makes a big difference, though.  The odd thing about that 777 MSDS is that it shows the same components as Pyrodex (which appears to be extremely similar to BP, with the addition/substitution of the potassium perchlorate and some kind of graphite coating), while it is certain that 777 is primarily a completely different compound based on sugar of some type.  I agree the sub. manufacturers aren't entirely forthcoming in their marketing, but when has that ever happened?  My truck makes a funky noise while driving under certain conditions, and it appears to have been a common problem for around 10 years with that transmission, yet that never was in any of the advertisements !  On the other hand, they are liable for material problems, so it is hard to believe that all subs are instantly corrosive under all conditions: perhaps certain temperatures and humidity levels are important, and then there is the matter of prompt and thorough cleaning and possibly reactions with some cleaning solutions or lubricants.  Fundamentally, BP is the best/easiest choice simply because it is the longest tested and best understood and (for many of us) the traditional/historical choice; that, however, does not mean that any possible sub. is inherently bad or even worse than BP from a purely objective/functional standpoint.  Those that are interested in an alternative for whatever reasons should treat each individually and evaluate it on its own merits, just as we do different brands and incarnations of BP (I believe that some of it was also more corrosive in the past than it is now).

[Dphariss]

Dan and Daryl,
I agree about the potassium perchlorate in 777 MSDS.  Monk acknowledged that in the post I linked to, but said he couldn't find much of any of it, and that it didn't pit the plates (brass or steel)?  Since all I remember about high school chemistry is that my lab partner was a cheerleader (sadly, she was a senior and I was a tubby sophomore; at least she was friendly and smart to boot -- an honor to that short skirt), I can't add to his chemical analysis.  I would think the percentage makes a big difference, though.  The odd thing about that 777 MSDS is that it shows the same components as Pyrodex (which appears to be extremely similar to BP, with the addition/substitution of the potassium perchlorate and some kind of graphite coating), while it is certain that 777 is primarily a completely different compound based on sugar of some type.  I agree the sub. manufacturers aren't entirely forthcoming in their marketing, but when has that ever happened?  My truck makes a funky noise while driving under certain conditions, and it appears to have been a common problem for around 10 years with that transmission, yet that never was in any of the advertisements !  On the other hand, they are liable for material problems, so it is hard to believe that all subs are instantly corrosive under all conditions: perhaps certain temperatures and humidity levels are important, and then there is the matter of prompt and thorough cleaning and possibly reactions with some cleaning solutions or lubricants.  Fundamentally, BP is the best/easiest choice simply because it is the longest tested and best understood and (for many of us) the traditional/historical choice; that, however, does not mean that any possible sub. is inherently bad or even worse than BP from a purely objective/functional standpoint.  Those that are interested in an alternative for whatever reasons should treat each individually and evaluate it on its own merits, just as we do different brands and incarnations of BP (I believe that some of it was also more corrosive in the past than it is now).

The data he sent me in PDF form has significant corrosion.
I will have to call him maybe tomorrow. Weather should be bad enough to keep him off his bike...

People who want to think the amount used makes a difference should look at any Garand or 03 Springfield (or other military rifle) that was shot with chlorate primers. The primers have about 1/2 a grain of Potassium Chlorate and pitted bores horribly sooner or later since nobody flushed them with water. The active ingredient in the fouling is basically table salt. But its forced into every nook and cranny of the bore under high pressure.
It sucks up water from the air at humidity levels where BP fouling is not even corrosive. It holds the water and corrodes the surface.
I do not think that either powder will work if all the Potassium Perchlorate were removed.
If they have changed the formula they have had to replace this chemical with something similar. I do not think they can make it non-corrosive without changing it to a nitro powder.

Dan

[kutter]

I'm certainly no scientist or chemist and reading all the back and forth leaves me wondering more than knowing.

..but in my somewhat unsupervised youth,,'white powder' was simply made with suger & potassium salt.
It worked pretty well as a form of BP and made some pretty fancy home made fireworks too when mixed with shop dust from the floor sweepings (steel, brass, aluminum filings etc).

I think potassium salt is nothing more than potassium chlorate or maybe perchlorate,,(my lack of science showing again)

Could all or some of this sub BP powder be nothing more than that, with maybe some other refinements thrown in for burning control and smoke etc?,,though it did smoke good too!
Some kids called it candy powder.

[graybeard]

i'm new to this thread, but have you tried to go to a C.W. REENACTMENT to ask thoes guys?? i have bought b.p. by the case of 25lbs. to use in my 1862 richmond, and also have found several guys that will sell some at a good price[$15. to $20.00]. also there quite a few powder sellers in the west that sell mixed cases. several av in mags such as muzzleloader, muzzle blasts[ NMLRA assot.]. i can give addresses if interested.

[Dphariss]

I'm certainly no scientist or chemist and reading all the back and forth leaves me wondering more than knowing.

..but in my somewhat unsupervised youth,,'white powder' was simply made with suger & potassium salt.
It worked pretty well as a form of BP and made some pretty fancy home made fireworks too when mixed with shop dust from the floor sweepings (steel, brass, aluminum filings etc).

I think potassium salt is nothing more than potassium chlorate or maybe perchlorate,,(my lack of science showing again)

Could all or some of this sub BP powder be nothing more than that, with maybe some other refinements thrown in for burning control and smoke etc?,,though it did smoke good too!
Some kids called it candy powder.

The sugar powers are a separate issue and are indeed in production but they, though not corrosive, have other problems but are apparently improving.
Potassium Chlorate is a detonating compound IIRC, at any rate it was used in early percussion caps and in some primers until the 1950s or even later since it made a very consistent primer with a very long shelf life.

Dan

[Harnic]

Well, after I last added to this thread, I wrote Hodgdon for some info.  I already got a reply & I quote:

"The internet is full of “experts” who will express their opinions as fact and crucify anyone who would dare to speak the truth.  They attack almost everything at one time or another and tend to “Bully” anyone who has something constructive to say.  In short, the internet is now of no value when it comes to firearms.

 

Pyrodex is no more corrosive than blackpowder.  Triple Seven is much less corrosive than black powder or Pyrodex as the Triple Seven  has no sulfur.  The sulfur in blackpowder and Pyrodex is the major cause of corrosion in the residue of both Pyrodex and blackpowder.    The rumors about Pyrodex being so corrosive started back 35 years ago when some gun writers put out articles saying there was no need to worry about cleaning after shooting Pyrodex because it was not real blackpowder and would not harm your guns.  Of course, there were many rusted guns when this advice was followed.  We have been educating people about the need to clean from day 1 but the rumors keep on.  Some of those who repeat the rumors are just internet shooters and do not actually shoot, they just like to play the expert.  Sometimes we find our competition behind it on the forums.  But, the truth is, if the firearms are cleaned after use, there is no problem.  If they are not cleaned, rust occurs.

 

As far as the flintlock rumors go, you nailed it.  If people use the same method you have tried they will have the same results.  We do not claim that the ignition will be as fast as with blackpowder but it can be done it needed.

 

Thanks for taking the time to ask.  We appreciate it.

 

Mike Daly

Customer Service Manager

Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants

Hodgdon Smokeless Powder

IMR Powder Company

Winchester Smokeless Propellants

GOEX Blackpowder"

[bob in the woods]

Thanks for taking the time to research this, and for sharing.  I, refer back to my own experience, not taking the subjective view of those who are in the business of selling the stuff. My guns told me that they didn't like it, and that's good enough for me   

[Harnic]

Thanks for taking the time to research this, and for sharing.  I, refer back to my own experience, not taking the subjective view of those who are in the business of selling the stuff. My guns told me that they didn't like it, and that's good enough for me   

Just teasing here Bob, but maybe you better review your cleaning technique?    Actually, you live in a much more humid area than I do & I recon that makes a huge difference in the end results.

[Daryl]

I have no iron in this fire, either. I want to kow if it is not corrosive -ie: the marketer (Hodgdon makes NO powder- they sell it only) says this, "not as corrosive as black powder fouling" - I do not trust them, nor do I trust most mfg'rs. I already know chlorates are bad - perchlorates contains something like double or triple the oxygen of normal cholorate or something like that so more oxygen means to me, MORE oxidation, so I assume they are worse.  What exactly does the per in perchlorate mean as opposed to chlorate. I asked a company if their phony powder had chlorates in it, no, they said in direct mail to me.  Hodgdon then had it noted in an article in their manual,  which said it contained perchlorate.  So - no it doesn't have chlorate, it has perchlorate - see, they didn't lie - in their own mind - no, it wasn't Hodgdon.  But see what I mean about mfgrs'? Which manufacturer doesn't make the biggest, fastest, slowest, cheapest, longest, whatever-est THING- just trust them, they wouldn't lie to you."

 

Harry - you aren't the first to contact Hodgdon to see what they'd say.  I've a friend on another forum who contacted them a year ago and they said to him, exactly what I said above and what they sent to you.  Note above quote from my post to this thread "not as corrosive as black powder fouling" - perhaps you didn't see it.   

What's the first thing a Lawyer does to a witness on the stand?  Like I said - fill your boots.  I for one, wanted to know the truth, not what the person selling it was spouting. The best, the fastest, the slowest, the smallest, the biggest, the least corrosive.

At least the Russians didn't lie; 'Ve haft da largest mikrrrochips een da verlt".

[Mad Monk]

Daryl & Daryl,

The comments regarding chlorates versus perchlorates, etc.

The difference between chlorates and perchlorates is meaningless when it comes to bore corrosion issues after shooting.
 potassium chlorate has 3 atoms of oxygen while the perchlorate has 4.
The point is that both leave potassium chloride as a product of combustion.  During powder combustion they simply give up their atoms of oxygen to promote the combustion of the fuel.

Any chloride salt in the bore after shooting may cause pit corrosion of the bore's surfaces given the right conditions.  Mainly moisture in the air in the bore.  The tiny crystals of potassium chloride, on the bore's surfaces, will form electrolytic corrosion "cells" on the surface of the metal when the surfaces of the crystals become moist or wet from moisture in the air in the bore.

Protective films applied in the bore may not be thick enough to totally cover or encapsulate the crystals of potassium chloride leaving them some access to moisture in the air in the bore.  This allows the crystals to form corrosion cells.


Going back a good number of years.
Two well known writers were paid to write on the powder in question.  One article stated that the powder contained a rust inhibitor..  That is true to a point.  During powder combustion the rust inhibiting chemical is destroyed.  So while it might act as a pre-combustion rust inhibitor it cannot do so as a post-combustion rust inhibitor since it was destroyed during powder combustion.


What was being claimed for some powders back in the early 1980's is why I got into all of my lab work on them.  I was getting a bit tired of manufacturers treating us like a bed of mushrooms.

E. Ogre

[Harnic]

Daryl, while I don't accept Mike's note as gospel truth, I do agree with his assertion that good cleaning practices are key to corrosion prevention.  I have no concerns about using Triple 7 in any of my guns & will likely use it when real bp is regulated out of retail outlets. I wipe the bore down with Hoppes #9+ when I'm finished shooting and ALWAYS wash my gun with hot, soapy tap water before I eat supper.  Cleaning my guns comes before feeding my face!

[Harnic]

Harnic, the bottom line for me is that my first hand experience doesn't lie...it supports their Email reply to you, and I have no affiliation with Hodgdon or any manufacturer for that matter.

Good to know RB.  I like to get a variety of opinions, but I'm like you, "first hand experience" is the best information.  I'm going to shoot several cans of it thru my flintlock over the winter & see what happens.  I'm pretty anal about cleaning my guns, so I rather expect no harm will occur.  I am planning to change barrels on my rifle any way, so I'll put that job off til next spring, then I'll pull the breech plug to get a good look at things.  Thanks for your comment.

[Dphariss]

After a rather extended phone conversation with E. Ogre I have come the the conclusion that the formula being discussed has been changed in a way that is not reflected in the original MSDS and that it is more than an "improved" Pyrodex.  Why they would indicate this is simply an improvement to the old product when it might be something else is not something I intend to go into here other than to say.

There are major differences in Pyrodex and T7 that are not reflected in the MSDS or other official paperwork it would seem.  But if it were too different "officially" the hoop jumping gets much worse for the maker. So its only an "improvement".  But the "improvement" was substantial and apparently resulted in all the chlorate producing components being removed regardless of what the MSDS says.
So its likely far less corrosive than Pdex and might well be less corrosive than BP.
What it does is give the in-line shooter, the intended user, a propellant that is less dangerous in the modern in-line than smokeless but gives higher velocity than BP or Pdex. Its what the modern ML hunter wanted. Something to make his ML more like his 270.

But as Ogre indicated above the level of BS and manipulation of testing and quasi or outright falsehood in the making and sale of ML products (guns, propellants, flints, nipples, lubes, bullets etc etc almost all "new and improved") is not widely known to the consumer. But its not safe to take any manufacturers word on anything. Even in an MSDS it would seem.

But people will believe what they want to believe or what is convenient for them.

As a result there are people who will swear to things that are at odds with things that I and others who work(ed) in the industry in one way or another know as fact based on actual experience. 

Dan

[Harnic]

Dan, I have been corresponding with E. Ogre via e-mail as well & he is a valuable resource to all!  He has giving me a lot to chew on as well, but nothing I've stated I plan to try has changed.  A very interesting man to be sure!  I am still of the belief as we have discussed here that prompt cleaning will reduce/eliminate any risk of potential corrosion caused by H777.  All of these subs are primarily offered to the benefit of in-line shooters, but with legislation heading where it seems to be, it behooves us to be prepared to use what's available if the day comes when real bp is banned.  As has been stated, there is a lot of self-serving misinformation floating about & it's up to all of us to weed through it all & pick what we can believe to experiment with.  Great topic!  Lots to think about.

[bgf]

Dan,
Thanks for the update and for doing that phone work.  

[Vomitus]

   Great topic!. Although I never intend on using subs, it's good to know what is going on with them.Anything that is salt or chlorate based stays clear of JP Beck,lol. BTW,chlorates in my business eats stainless pipes.(clo2)

[bob in the woods]

With legislation heading where it seems to be.......don't give in !!!!!
Anyway, I wondered if the question of pressures has come up, regarding these "powders"
Since modern inlines have modern steel barrels etc, and my flintlocks are mainly "swamped " barrels of the sort that some say are unsafe even with BP.; I'd like to know about press.curves etc