bpc cast bullets for fast twist ml

[ottawa]

was wondering about it can you use a .50/70 cast bullet in a fast twist ML if the diameter of the bore and bullet match? i mite have a convert from in line to traditional style a friend bought one of those in line and now he wants to start casting we are suppose to go out and shoot this weekend him with the inline in 50 me with my 54 hawken or my 45 mountain rifle or both i have him convinced that the hype of 150 grains  of powder is not needed too kill most anything we hunt and i dont plan on any safaris any time soon so we will see

[Longknife]

Ott, If the bore and bullet size match then the rifling will not grip the bullet enough to spin it. If you try to patch it, it will be TOO tight on the L-O-N-G bullet and be very hard, if not impossible  to seat????My .02....Ed

[ottawa]

what i ment was a 50 cal rifle and lets say a 515 bullet

[Daryl]

The .50 ctg. bullet will work just fine in a rifle.

 For the deeper rifled barrels such as I had on one fast twist Bauska barrel, I pushed the .50 cal bullets through a piece of the same barrel, heavily coned (crowned) on one end to allow imprinting the rifling lands into the bullets. The bullets were then held in a piece of "Flambeau" loading block that had the tops (bottoms) cut out to allow the bullet noses to poke through. Because the bullets had the rifling imprinted on them, they had to be 'mechanically' lined up to engage at the muzzle when loaded. This worked perfectly. With some bullet designs, and especially with shallow rifling, the 'blow' of the powder charge will 'slug' up the bullet to fill the rifling even though the bullet is riding on the lands when loaded.

 For designs not mechanically loaded (no rifling imprints) the bullet, to ensure good accuracy - nay good but excellent accuracy, I found the bullet had to be .001" to .002" larger than the bore, thus it 'engraved' slightly upon loading and sluged up to fill just fine. If it was too loose, as in a minnie bullet, accuracy was poorer and fouling excessive.

 A shortened version of the .50/70 bullet would work better - maybe a 350gr. to 380gr. design, but with the square grease grooves that hold more lube.  For lube, use one of the better black powder lubes - Lyman's Black Powder Gold, SPG or perhaps 60/40 mix of beeswax/olive oil (or neetsfoot oil)  I've use vaseline with the beeswax in the past and had excellent results, but olive oil or neetsfoot oil 'should' be better yet.  By good shooting I mean that shots 2 through 15 or 16 should be perfect with no wiping and easy loading.  You can try a lubed ox-yoke-type wad down on the powder as it may help, or not as the case may be. It may not be necessary - I never used wads.

 For mechanically fitted bullets, you can easily make up a die to fit a Lyman or RCBS lube sizer from a piece of the barrel you are going to use. Cut the generous crown on this new insert, and use the handle to push the already hand lubed bullets through.  The cake-cutter/lube pan method can be used to lube bullets. As noted, the yellow Flambeau handloading ctg. blocks can be used for bullet blocks for .50 cals. The bullets fit perfectly. Merely cut the bottoms out with a dremel tool and carbide cutter shaft - or a drill in a drill press.

 Hope this helps.

[Dphariss]

So long as its properly twisted a ML will shoot any bullet a cartridge gun will.
The original twist for the 50-70 was about 40". Sharps used 36" in the 50.
But these will not shoot a heavy enough bullet for good long range performance. Sharps admitted the 50-100 shot as well at 600 as the 44-100 did at 1000. For hunting this is not that important. Just be aware that unpatched bullets tend to slide down the bore in hunting rifles. I would not mess with this other than for hunting.
If you have a custom barrel made that has a bore diameter near the bullet diameter it will load a lot easier. But this can cause trouble with some bullet designs. The Lyman 450 gr 50 is close to the old 50-70 bullet and will shoot OK in over sized bores. At least it should.
Some bullet nose shapes can cause trouble if the bore is too large.
Best way is a false muzzle that will form the bullet to a perfect fit when started.

Dan

[Daryl]

All good advice from Dan.   The bullet sliding is another reason I like the bullet to be slightly oversize. It doesn't need much, just to be a 'hair' larger than the bore. For this reason, I'd stay away from the hollow-based minnie-type bullets, unless they are swaged or bumped up larger.

 One way of increasing a solid bullets' size a few thou is to roll it between a very coarse rasp and a doubled towel.  The 'cuts' will expand out form the surface to increase the size to make it engrave slightly in the lands. This is for a bullet that is undersize, like perhaps the Hornady Buffalo Bullet.

[longcruise]

what i ment was a 50 cal rifle and lets say a 515 bullet

A friend provided me with some 450 grain 50-70 style bullets quite a few years back.  They came out of the mold at about .515 and he sized them to .504.  I shot them from a 1:48 twist TC hawken barrel with excellent accuracy results.  Much more accurate than the 370 gr TC maxi ball.  I never exceeded 80 grains of goex ff simply because the recoil was considerable.   They were a bit tight getting started but once started loaded easily enough.  I'd guess that a .50 with an even faster twist would shoot the 450 grainers well and surely the 500 grainers as well.  As for sizeing, not sure what to recommend.  I don't recall how my fried sized mine.

Hope he is ready for some serious recoil if packing those on top of 150 grains of powder!!!!!!!!

[ottawa]

i dont think he'll try the 150 grns of powder with that round    i think ive got him convinced that big of a charge is not neede to hut or target shoot with hopfully after shooting my hawkens ill have him wanting a real ML

[Daryl]

The original .50/90 (100, 110, etc) was loaded with a 473gr. bullet - grooved or PP, not sure. This is to my recollection of reading about them, many years ago.  I've fired enough 90gr. charges with 450gr. & 520gr. Lymans as well as 550gr. RCBS bullets. 50's in an 11 1/2 pound rolling block, to not want to shoot more in an even lighter muzzleloading rifle.  The .50 3 1/4" I had kicked enough even with the light bullet, that I sold it.  Where these guys get off recommending 150gr. charges in those light inlines, I just don't understand - much - it appears to run along with those who think high numbers of foot pounds of energy actually means something.

[Gene Carrell]

A trick we have used to use BPCR bullets in ML rifles is to cast as normal, lube the grooves, then size down to the diameter wanted. It may take a couple of steps to get down to your desired size, but with full grooves, they will not collapse. I use grease groove bullets in my long-range Rigby rifle.My bullets are cast/sized 0.002" over bore diameter to engage rifling on loading. They load stiff, but do not take extraordinary effort. Bullet selection will be your challenge. Fast twist for heavy and slower twist for lighter bullets. Don't expect round ball velocities. 1150-1350 fps with your best accuracy likely at the slower  end.

Note that you can paper-patch grooved bullets. Do not grease and patch to load very tight, but do not cut paper with rifling at loading. It must be tight enough to not slip towards muzzle as you carry it on your hunt.

[BrownBear]

Long as folks have verged into comparative recoil and velocities with 50 cal cartridge guns, I've got a pre-Sheridan Sharpes in 50-140.  It's an "officers" model and comparatively light, roughly 9 pounds or so. 

With the RCBS 550 and 130 grains of 2f in such a light rifle, you may redefine recoil.  With a 630 grain paper patch over the same charge, you will bless an English sporting or shotgun style butt.  I certainly wouldn't make even the slightest mistake in how you shoulder a hooked butt on any rifle.  Velocity with either combo in my rifle runs in the 1100-1150fps range.

[arcticap]

Hornady came out with a new slip fit ML conical bullet called the FPB that's extremely accurate from a wide variety of barrel twists.
It's a jacketed .50 minie that weighs 350 grains and which is very precisely & optimally sized. It's now sold at Walmart too. And the plastic tip can even be cut off or removed without adversely affecting performance in order to meet Colorado's 1 inch conical length requirement for BP hunting with a .50.
IMO shooting the longer BPCR cast conicals are much more of a $#@* shoot.
The Hornady FBP has proven itself to be a great game bullet too.

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=770

[Daryl]

Where does the bullet lube go?  Obviously, this modern bullet design (along with the elsatomer tip) is designed for those who like to wipe between shots. Anyting to make a $$ I guess- whatever the market will stand - etc, etc.

[arcticap]

These bullets are expensive. But except for the plastic tip, they're based on a traditional minie design.
If the tip is removed the hollow point can be filled in with epoxy, glue, BB or a lead pellet if desired.
It reportedly shoots pretty flat and accurately out of medium twist barrels out to 75 - 100 yards.
Maybe the thin copper jacket somehow aids consistency by distorting less and the hollow base engages the rifling better?
The availablity of these offers folks the option to either invest in a more expensive barrel or rig to shoot conicals out of or to buy these more expensive pre-fabricated bullets and pay as you go, for hunting or special purposes as needed.
For a fraction of the price of a fast twist Pedersoli Tyron rifle and a conical mold made in Italy for it, a TC rifle can deliver somewhat similar dependable accuracy with this new fangled American conical.
And they do help to enhance the accuracy of guns and barrels that folks already own and who still want to try to improve on their performance with.
It would be even cheaper and better if someone would produce a lead mold that closely replicates the new Hornady minie.  

[Dphariss]

These bullets are expensive. But except for the plastic tip, they're based on a traditional minie design.
If the tip is removed the hollow point can be filled in with epoxy, glue, BB or a lead pellet if desired.
It reportedly shoots pretty flat and accurately out of medium twist barrels out to 75 - 100 yards.
Maybe the thin copper jacket somehow aids consistency by distorting less and the hollow base engages the rifling better?
These give folks a choice whetehr to invest in a more expensive barrel or rig to shoot conicals out of or to buy these more expensive pre-fabricated bullets for hunting.
For a fraction of the price of a fast twist Pedersoli Tyron rifle and a conical mold made in Italy for it, a TC rifle can deliver somewhat similar dependable accuracy with this American made conical with a copper jacket being the new angle.
So these open up a new choice to pay all at once shooting with a more expensive rig or pay little by little as one shoots minie's like these Hornadys for special purposes. 
These do help to enhance the accuracy of guns and barrels that folks already own and still want to try to improve their performance.
It would be even better if someone would produce a mold that closely replicates the Hornady in pure lead.   

My experience with these plastic tipped bullets has not been good. Having shot 2 deer with Hornady's Lever Revolution 45-70 ammo I am very distrustful. They tend to not track straight through the animals. The two deer I killed BOTH had the bullet turn about 45 degrees on impact. I let my son shoot the rest of 2 boxes of this stuff for fun.
I have NEVER seen or heard of this occurring with cast lead bullets in 40-44-45 and 50 caliber Sharps cartridges or conventional jacketed bullets in 45-70.

Dan

[arcticap]

Could you identify which plastic tipped bullets you observed?
Some folks are using these new ones for hunting elk with their .50's.
Thanks.

[Dphariss]

Could you identify which plastic tipped bullets you observed?
Some folks are using these new ones for hunting elk with their .50's.
Thanks.

The 325 gr version Hornady loads in their HV factory 45-70 LeveRevolution ammo. I think they load a similar bullet (maybe 350 gr) in the 450 Marlin.

Before going GAA-GAA over this "new and improved' stuff (especially in ML bullets) people need to remember most of this $#@* is designed to SELL stuff to people who love "new and improved". I got lazy 2 years ago and bought a couple of boxes of the 45-70 to see if they were all they were cracked up to be and I was out of ammo for the Marlin. They made just about exact claimed velocity from my 26" Douglas barreled Marlin. Shot good and shot flat (2050+- fps). Not worth a @!*% in actual use on game. Yes it kills stuff but I did a "perfect shot" on a mule deer doe and she got up after laying down and I had to shoot her again bullet went off track. I wondered if I had blown the shot. Shot buck later and was VERY careful to wait for a near perfect broadside shot. Bullet struck the large front leg muscle below the shoulder blade shed the plastic tip within 2" (it was bent I found it when skinning) and turned 45 degrees and went into the stomach making a nasty green mess. This is BS in a big game bullet and indicates a serious flaw.
That its not a darned bit better and might be worse than the "old fashioned" stuff is not important. Its getting people the buy "new and improved" that matters.
I would FAR rather shoot deer with a RCBS 45-300 FP GC or the Lyman 456192 (350 gr) or 457193 (420 cast soft and good for even Buffalo), are all far better hunting bullets.
These tipped bullets developed a pretty poor reputation in the late 19th and early 20th century ago but the lure of the protected point bullet keeps resurrecting the things the just will not die.

Sorry for the rant but people are constantly being lead down the "Primrose Path" by advertisements written in the form of articles in the gun press.

Dan

[Daryl]

Whar's the grease set? Jacketed bullets in a ML?

[longcruise]

Whar's the grease set? Jacketed bullets in a ML?

Apparently it will work.  There have been jacketed Power Belts around for a while.  Instead of the hollow base they have a plastic skirt that falls away.

Friend shot an elk with one and drove it the full length from front to back.  Later that year we were hog hunting and he shot a 100# hog with the same bullet from the same package and same load at about the same distance and the dang thing disintegrated in the chest cavity without exiting.  The hog had not yet grown a gristle shield on it's shoulders.

Dan hit the nail on the head.  It's all about marketing the latest and greatest gee gaw.

There are plenty of good molds around for conicals that have proven adequate for a long time.

[Daryl]

The chap who builds those power belt bullets was hunting moose this last fall with us. Mike is a very nice fellow. Can't say we agree on 'proper' muzzleloading projectiles, though.

[Dphariss]

Whar's the grease set? Jacketed bullets in a ML?

Apparently it will work.  There have been jacketed Power Belts around for a while.  Instead of the hollow base they have a plastic skirt that falls away.

Friend shot an elk with one and drove it the full length from front to back.  Later that year we were hog hunting and he shot a 100# hog with the same bullet from the same package and same load at about the same distance and the dang thing disintegrated in the chest cavity without exiting.  The hog had not yet grown a gristle shield on it's shoulders.

Dan hit the nail on the head.  It's all about marketing the latest and greatest gee gaw.

There are plenty of good molds around for conicals that have proven adequate for a long time.

To expand somewhat.
Lead/lead alloy bullets are remarkably reliable at BP velocities.
People get hung up on penetration. But Forsythe pointed out that penetration need only be adequate.
30" of pentration will kill anything in NA. In fact significantly less will do pretty well for most.
Using a short barreled English rifle Forsythe could drive a hardened 15 guage ball (about .675") through an Indian Elephants head from side to side with 5 drams, about 137 grains, of powder that was likely very similar to FFG Swiss. He shot through both shoulders of the Sambar at 250 yards with the same load or similar. The PRB properly sized for the game is a VERY effective projectile so long as its limitations are kept in mind.
Its not a 300 yard projectile unless very large. But shooting over 100-150 with barrel sights is pretty risky anyway.

People must keep in mind that a conical bullet with no patch cannot be made "tight" in the bore since loading it makes it s more or less loose fit. They tend to move if the rifle is carried muzzle down or bumped. This is why "naked" bullets for general use in MLS never caught on historicaly . I belive this is why they never causght on back in the day. People mostly hunted with cloth patched RBs or short Picket bullets.
At BP velocities I am sure that the .662 RB from my flintlock will produce more effect on the target animal than a similar weight or even heavier slug of 45 caliber.
People wanting more penetration  or killing power need increase the diameter of the ball rather that buying into the conical bullet/muzzle energy as killing power arguments promoted by gun industry shills. But there is no real money in telling people this, for the gun writer, custom makers do not have large advertising budgets and seldome give away products to get free advertising. There IS  a lot of money in inlines used to extend hunting seasons by letting the typical modern rifle hunter to have a ML that looks and feels like his bolt gun. And he "knows" you need jacketed bullets to kill anything.
Dan

[northmn]

I can only agree with Dan.  Most of the new stuff is a joke designed to be the "latest and greatest"  There were slug guns back in the ML days that were very accurate.  The Whitworth used mechanically fitted bullets.  Some Hakens were made fast twist for picket bullets (with a Hawken buttplate they must have been interesting) and the Irish used Mls to shoot against the Americans at the first Creedmore at 1000 yards.  Two things are needed for accurate use of these bullets.  Proper bullets and proper rifle.  An individual described shooting one of the new fangled plastic guns with the heavy charges as comparative to shooting a 458 Winc Mag.  The new Pedersoli Gibbs is an example of the proper type rifle and they sell proper molds to go with it.  Read Ned Roberts in the "Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle"  as he describes the methods.  Some used a patch for the bullet that formed a cross at the muzzle for loading.  I have also heard of the pre-rifled method Daryl described.  Winchester played with their "Express" loads in their lever guns which were light bullets at "higher" velocities.  That was marketing to permit the use of bullets that fit through the actions.  This is a whole different game thatn what we do with longrifles.  My own preference is to use BP in a BP cartridge instead of playing around with this type of gun as shooting them is about the same. 

DP

[Dan]

There must be some sort of blasphemy there...plastic tipped bullets in muzzleloaders.

I think there is a missing element in the discussion and have mentioned it in previous threads on this topic.  I see no harm in launching Hindenbergs from guns sufficiently strong to handle the pressures. Inlines can do this, no doubt.  If one is stout enough to handle 150 grains of charge, more power to him, pun intended.  Loading such bullets in caplocks of conventional design is risky. It is not a matter of difficultly in loading or twist rates, it is one of strength in conventional bolster designs on one part, and longevity of nipples on another. The latter is of minor import, the former is something else entirely.

[arcticap]

http://www.thegunworks.com/GunIndex.cfm?next=who

I haven't shot plastic tipped bullets, and while there are sidelocks rated to shoot 150 grains of ffg, I don't know why either are made.
These Venom bullets are made with a plastic tip and a plastic core.
They claim that it's more aerodynamic, lighter in weight and flatter shooting with more energy.
They resemble the TC MaxiBall. Due to the plastic core, the .54 caliber version only weighs 340 grains instead of 430 grains if it was a pure lead TC.
Sure it's a gimmick, but then maybe it won't recoil as much for the young hunters or ladies who may shoot lightweight carbines with plastic stocks.

 
  




 

[Daryl]

http://www.thegunworks.com/GunIndex.cfm?next=who

I haven't shot plastic tipped bullets, and while there are sidelocks rated to shoot 150 grains of ffg, I don't know why either are made.
These Venom bullets are made with a plastic tip and a plastic core.
They claim that it's more aerodynamic, lighter in weight and flatter shooting with more energy.
They resemble the TC MaxiBall. Due to the plastic core, the .54 caliber version only weighs 340 grains instead of 430 grains if it was a pure lead TC.
Sure it's a gimmick, but then maybe it won't recoil as much for the young hunters or ladies who may shoot lightweight carbines with plastic stocks. [\quote]

   




 



 THAT bullet is a TC Maxiball - note the huge grease grooves- worse bullet I've seen for turning not 45 degrees, but sometimes 90 degrees upon hitting a bone. The only difference is they've put the magic plastic tip on this one as well. Whoopeeee.  The shape is it's worse enemy as with the huge grease grooves, it seems to collapse upon itself instead of expanding.  Getting smaller when it hits something is not a good thing.  I doubt the plastic nose reverses it's basic poor deign.  Yes it's nice to have lots of grease, but the design is all wrong for a bullet to penetrate straight and expand. It also holds more grease than as bullet needs.
 The are moose losers.