my GGGG grand father's rifle

[woodsrunner]

There's another aspect to this that may well prove that this rifle WAS used in the RevWar! They tell the story up home in the Mountains where I'm from about the traveling salesman who ran into a young kid on the road who was out hunting. The salesman admired the kid's rifle, and the kid told him "Yep, hit's a goodin' and my GGGrandfather used hit at Kings Mountain again' tha Englishmen. The rifle was a caplock in almost new condition, so the salesman made the comment that rifles at Kings Mountain were "flintlock" and not caplock to which the kid replied that the flintlock broke so his GGrandfather put on one of them newfangled caplocks! Then the salesman commented that the barrel looked almost new, and the kid replied that "yep, hit got bent so my "Pa" put a new one on hit, and he just changed the stock last year....BUT HITS THE SAME OLE RIFLE MY GGGRANDFATHER USED AT KINGS MOUNTAIN"!

Given the necessity of recycling parts like we Southerners did, this might be the case with this piece! And by the way.....some of my ancestors, "Creasys and Poagues", were up there in Virginia in and around Bedford County-Roanoke, at the time of the RevWar. Am I kin to any of you Virginia fellas?

[Eric Kettenburg]

Interesting patchbox!  Would it be possible for you to take a good closeup of the box (and post it here, please) that would more clearly show the engraving around the edge? 

[Acer Saccharum]

The PB lid looks like it came off a small keepsake box, maybe a jewelry box. Interesting indeed.

[mkeen]

Smithow, does the estate inventory or estate sale list the value of the gun? A value could help establish if the gun was purchased shortly before Robert Elliot's death.

Mart Keen

[flintriflesmith]

The PB lid looks like it came off a small keepsake box, maybe a jewelry box. Interesting indeed.

Acer,
It may look that way but it is a regional style box found on a number of 19th century rifles from the Botetourt, Floyd, Roanoke County areas. That's how I initially spotted the region before we looked up M. Scott.

There is at least one other surviving rifle made in the same area with a hook breech and take down (two piece) stock. It is a John Painter who worked until well after the Civil War building percussion full stock longrifles.
Gary
Gary

[Smithow]

To answer the estate values"one horse $5.00, one wolf trap $1.75,one saddle $3.05, one rifle gun $7.30". Many other items sold for very little. The "rifle gun" must have been very valuable. The rifle was appraised at $6.00 prior to the sale.

The history of these items is awesome, given the fact that the spouse was given nothing...she did NOT inherit  anything'

A very different world in 1838.

Smithow

[Smithow]

As I know little about these firearms, the patch box cover must have been replaced. The reason being, the rear opening looks like it was "chopped" open. But, the patch box cover has a notched latch. I will try to provide some more detailed photos.

Now for the Virginia surnames "Creasy and "Poage". They are familiar names for this area of Virginia. If you have not researched your Virginia roots, you are missing a joyful experience. Mark Smith gave me inputs to great info from Ancestry,com I use Ancestry.com daily in my research. Retirement is GOOD !

You posters have given me info that I GREATLY appreciate.

smithow

[Smithow]

Nooow, who is Jim Webb as listed "pges 70 + 71" ?

[Dennis Glazener]

Jim Webb is an avid historian of western VA. He has done several books, including one on triggers and related parts he has seen on southern (mostly VA/NC) rifles. He can be contacted at the address below:
Jim Webb
333 Webb Haven Drive
Hillsville, VA 24343

[flintriflesmith]

As I know little about these firearms, the patch box cover must have been replaced. The reason being, the rear opening looks like it was "chopped" open. But, the patch box cover has a notched latch. I will try to provide some more detailed photos.
smithow

The damaged wood does NOT mean the "cover" was replaced. It is much more likely to mean the push button got stuck and some klutz with a pocket knife pry-ed it open. We are awaiting your better pictures but I blew up this one in PhotoShop and the engraving around the border of the box lid looks like first work and is the style of other work from this region.

Gary

[Smithow]

I believe that you are RIGHT...good analysis. The rear of the patchbox hole is very evenly matched to the shape of the patchbox cover, that is, elongated oval, nice precise cuts. So, I do believe that the patchbox "LID" is the original. If I said earlier the "gouges" were toward the rear, I was wrong.  The "gouges" probaly made with a knife to open the box are toward the lock. This also may show why the lid won't latch. I have to keep the rifle next to my PC to really investigate the little things. Anyway, this is really a lot of fun, recreating history.

smithow

[C. Cash]

Congrats on finding such a treasure! 

[Smithow]

I have very good photos of patch box and butt plate. Now how do I forward them to this WEB site ?

I did contact Jim Webb..very interesting and knowlegeable gentleman.

smithow

[Smithow]

Thanks, I knew very little about ML info. I did know who owned the rifle in 1838 and all the relatives who had owned it since. I am really into my Virginia family history and to find the piece is a bit amazing.


THANKS, Howard M. Smith in Macon, GA
{originally from SW Virginia)

[flintriflesmith]

Mr. Smith,
If you scroll down to the "tutorials" section you will find some good instructions on how to post pictures.  Most of us put the images in a PhotoBucket account and from there it is really simple to just stick a link to the image in the message here.
Gary

[Smithow]

I use picasa3 and I sent the photos to an E-maill address as shown in my ALR intro. I suppose that the moderator will put them on ALR msgs ??

[Dennis Glazener]

Photos provided by Smithow.

[Majorjoel]

A very unique patchbox! I just happen to really like things that are out of the ordinary. It does kind of make me sick to my stomach to see what someone would do to pry open one when they either didn't understand the mechanism or the latch stopped working. All you can do is chalk it up to the history of your rifle and be thankful that it has survived for us to see today. Thanks Smithow for sharing your family's heirloom rifle!

[Smithow]

Thank you, Dennis. Although not a collector item, I think I'm very fortunate to have it and know the smith, etc and the owner background.

Noow, do I "restore" it to some degree, polish the brass, add a lost ramrod ferrule...maybe clean up the wood, repair the patchbox latch ??

MANY thanks for y'all's research and input

Kindest regards,
Howard M. "Snuffy" Smith from olde Virginia.

[Bill of the 45th]

I, would first off do nothing to the rifle, you have because of family history, and provenance, all be it slightly skewed.  While not a high value collectors item, it's invaluable to the family history.  If it were me. I would consider a bench copy, that I could take out and shoot, enjoy, and share, while having the original to leave with the family.  There are any number of qualified fellows on this site that can accommodate you. though the copy may cost more than the originals value.  That's what I would do if it was my Heirloom, but's  thats just me.

Bill

[Dennis Glazener]

Thank you, Dennis. Although not a collector item, I think I'm very fortunate to have it and know the smith, etc and the owner background.

Noow, do I "restore" it to some degree, polish the brass, add a lost ramrod ferrule...maybe clean up the wood, repair the patchbox latch ??

MANY thanks for y'll's research and input

Kindest regards,
Howard M. "Snuffy" Smith from olde Virginia.

If it were mine I probably would go at it with Renaissance Wax, nothing else, it will clean most of the crude off it but NOT the patina. Most prefer to leave the brass patina  as is.
Dennis (also from olde Virginia)