Author Topic: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes  (Read 9454 times)

Offline smart dog

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A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« on: October 22, 2011, 11:30:53 PM »
Hi Folks,
I am really excited about these barrels, which I received from Hugh last week.  They are 45 cal., rifled, and made from a Damascus or twist barrel salvaged from an early 19th century fowling gun.  Hugh shaped them and then lined the barrels with modern steel liners. The twist barrel is basically a cosmetic shell over the real modern steel barrel. He then hand rifled them with a 1 x 18" twist.  He installed a blank plug, which I will shape into a hook.  The welded pattern will be apparent after I etch the barrels with ferric chloride.  I am going to use them to make a cased pair of early Twigg-inspired dueling pistols representing the transition period before most makers adopted swamped octagon barrels for dueling pistols.  They are superbly made and it was a pleasure doing business with Hugh.  Now I just need to find or make the right pair of flintlocks. 

dave



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Offline Ben I. Voss

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2011, 02:30:36 AM »
Cool project, Dave! Keep us posted on your progress. I'm sure they'll be shooters with Hugh's barrels on them!

Online T*O*F

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2011, 02:55:49 AM »
Dave,
Bob Roller is doing a limited run of 10 Twigg locks using the Davis Twigg plate.  They will have his internals and will be a 4 pin lock when done.  He was pre-selling them and taking deposits.  I seem to recall he only had sold 8 but I could be wrong.  I know that Pletch ordered one.  Not cheap....$300 each.

You might give him a ring if you're interested.
Dave Kanger

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Offline smart dog

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2011, 04:12:56 AM »
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the info on the Twigg locks.  If he is using the Davis plate they will be too big for pistols.  The locks I will need have to be <4.5". I probably will have to look for castings from Blackley's.  Thanks again Dave,

dave 
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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2011, 04:34:04 AM »
Bob is indeed using the Davis plate.  It would be a good choice for an English stalking gun or perhaps a fowler???

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
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Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2011, 05:10:32 PM »
Dave ;  Thanks for the kind words!  I am also anxious to see your pistols when finished.  Your previous work is exemplary.  Sleeving gun barrels is an old technique - I cannot give a date when it was first done but I do know that it was being done during Civil War times.   The next sleeving project for me is a single Damascus  barrel which will have a full octagon and swamped profile 9" long and 1" at the breech.  The liner is .45 cal. hand rifled by the same person who rifled yours.     Should have it done next week.
  Hugh Toenjes
H.T.

doug

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2011, 08:15:56 PM »
The welded pattern will be apparent after I etch the barrels with ferric chloride. 

     I would be inclined to bring out the pattern using the Oscar Gaddy method with alternating rusting solutions.  He used a mercuric chloride solution (plus ferric chloride, nitric acid and alcohol) for a slow rust over 12 hours followed by a short rust with ferric chloride for 5 - 15 minutes then back to the first solution.  Depending on the damascus pattern it takes from 2 to 3 days.  You wash the barrels in hot or boiling water to change the rust from brown to black as well as I think harden the rust and card wet with steel wool.   With the fine figure 8 type patterns, after the first rust you use a more dilute mercuric solution.

     When I have used the method, I no longer immerse the barrel in ferric chloride but instead wipe on a moderatly strong solution and let it stand for about 15 minutes, rewetting with ferric chloride every 5 minutes or so.

    I think the ferric chloride solution is for modern damascus using two types of high carbon steel

cheers Doug

Offline smart dog

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2011, 08:25:03 AM »
Hi Doug,
Thanks for the information on browning.  My concern, however, is how do you use, store, and dispose of mercuric chloride safely?  It is my understanding that "corrosive sublimate" is a very toxic material.

Thanks,

dave
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keweenaw

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2011, 06:18:15 PM »
The amount of mercuric chloride in a browning solution is pretty small.  You might be able to get someone in the biology or chemistry department of a local university to give you just the amount you need for the base solution.  The only real problem comes when dry carding where you are going to put really minute amounts of mercury, far far below toxic levels, into the air.  This is worse if you wheel card than if you card with steel wool where almost none should end up blowing around.   Wear disposable gloves, a good dust mask and work on a piece of newspaper  so as to not contaminate your workbench.  You can wet card with degreased steel wool and rinse all the residue down the drain which avoids airborne contamination of your work space but presents some different problems as the surface of the work needs to be dry to apply the next coat of solution.

In reality the amount of mercury involved is so small and can be controlled with good practices that most of us who use the stuff don't worry about it too much.

Tom

Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2011, 06:20:09 PM »
Dave:  Another feature on the the Damascus barrels that you posted above is one that might not be noticeable at first glance.  But take another look - the rifling grooves that I hand cut for you are fashioned in a "ratchet' configuration which will give you maximum grip on the patched round ball as it bears more against one side of the rifling due to inertia related to the short twist.  In other words one side of the land is .006" taller than the other side.  Check it out - Hugh   Toenjes
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 06:23:19 PM by Blacksmoke »
H.T.

doug

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2011, 07:41:45 PM »

Thanks for the information on browning.  My concern, however, is how do you use, store, and dispose of mercuric chloride safely?  It is my understanding that "corrosive sublimate" is a very toxic material.

     I store the liquid in a glass bottle and keep a small amount (3-4 oz) in a plastic bottle for use.   The amount of liquid that I use on a set of shotgun barrels for example would probably not exceed one or two teaspoons of liquid.  In use, I pour say a teaspoon full in a large plastic bottle lid and wet down a cleaning patch size piece of absorbant  cloth in that liquid.  I keep the cloth in the plastic lid with the liquid and add a small amount of water to the dried out liquid when I wet the barrel down after carding.  In between times I have a Windex bottle of water that I just spray on the dry barrel(s) and wipe it around with the above cleaning patch.

    A comment was made about dry carding; in my experience, dry carding removes too much of the rust and I alway card with steel wool and lots of water. 

     Relative to the amount of mercuric chloride actually used; it is a white powder and not very soluable in water.  I would have to look up the formula but you dissolve no more than 1 or 2 teaspoons in a liter of water and that will last you for a lot of barrels. 

    the alcohol I think is in the solution as a wetting agent; ie it reduces puddling on the smooth metal

     the reason that I don't immerse the barrel(s) in ferric chloride is that I never had a lot of success with wooden barrel plugs not leaking.  Part of that may have been that I immersed the shotgun barrels vertically in a plastic pipe full of ferric chloride solution.

    Also keep in mind that the results are highly variable between barrels; on some the pattern just jumps out at you while on others it is quite difficult to bring out the pattern and at best is comes out a pale grey colour.

    If the mercuric solution does not rust very effectively I will add a few drops of copper sulphate to it and sometimes that helps.

    Finally, the solution is very similar to most of the cold rusting solutions found in Angier's book on bluing/browning.  From what I can see all of his several solutions for iron barrels are variations of the same thing and all using mercuric chloride.  I kind of suspect that some of the cold rust blue solutions sold commercially today are very similar to Angier and to Gaddy.

    One final thought is that the amount of mercury mixed with the rust on the barrels is miniscule.

cheers Doug

Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2011, 02:58:35 AM »
Dave,  Doug's advice is solid!  One little tip that I do before browning damascus - I do a preliminary etch with muriatic acid ( available at any hardwear store).  I heat the damascus to about 190 degrees with the propane torch then give the polished damscus a quick wipe with the acid and you will have an instant look at the pattern.  Do not breath the fumes!    However you will have to neutralize the muriatic acid on the  damascus before doing the final browning.   Hugh Toenjes
H.T.

doug

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2011, 06:46:37 PM »
    copper sulphate will also confirm there is a pattern.  You can remove the copper colour by rubbing with lime sulphur tree spray which I presume changes the copper to copper sulphide and is black in colour as well as being soft and easy to card off.

    W Greener in his book of 1847 comments that you can deeply etch the pattern with a strong copper sulphate solution.  The method only took a 10 or 15 minutes if my memory is correct and was then followed by blueing / browning with the mercuric solution and the ferric chloride solution.  I have never tried the method and have no idea if it works.  I do know that some german shotgun barrels were apparently deeply etched and had noticeable ridges on them prior to browning or blueing.   The majority of english barrels are smooth or fairly smooth.

cheers Doug

Offline smart dog

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2011, 08:01:53 PM »
Doug, Hugh, and Tom,
Thank you very much for the information on browning.  I did some searching on the internet and found several vintage and doublegun sites describing methods for twist and damascus barrels.  One described using Peter Dyson's browning solution.  Do any of you have experience with that solution.  I am guessing that it contains HgCL.  I have much experience dying traps with logwood and am curious if any of you ever used it to add a red-brown tint to barrels browned using the traditional solutions.  I have Angier's book as well and will look at his formulae for twist barrels.

Thanks again and thank you Hugh for the fine barrels.  They are going to be another adventure for me.

dave 
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greybeard

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2014, 09:51:43 AM »
I am sure that the master Bill Brockway did a tutorial on damascus barrels browning. His pictures were awesome.   Bob Reader

jamesthomas

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2014, 04:26:35 PM »
 Man!, you guys are something else! :o I just re-lived a couple of chemistry classes!. and I'm still confused. I hope you all wear the proper gloves etc. when doing this.

Offline smart dog

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Re: A pair of nice pistol barrels by Hugh Toenjes
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2014, 03:40:12 PM »
Wow, this thread is sure a blast from the past!  I will try and find Brockaway's tutorial.  Thanks Greybeard.  I hope you are doing well.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."