Just when you think you know the rules

[Gene Carrell]

Spent time at the local range yesterday soaking up what remains  of our fine  weather  here in central Indiana. My goal was to continue wringing out a 45cal flint rifle that has not cooperated to date. Using  what I "knew" was a winning ball/patch/lube  combination, 0.445  ball/10 oz denium@about 0.022/and mink oil, I was to vary powder granulation and charge.
After some  playing around, I determined that it made little difference  in accuracy  using 2Fg or 3Fg powder, but 3Fg burned cleaner and left less fouling in the bore. I would have predicted  this. Best group was 7/8"  at 35yds with 70gr 3Fg.
I thought I was done, and then it happened. I found a partial package of pre-lubed  and  cut patches  it my box and decided to continue enjoying the morning a bit. They are only 0.015 thick, thinner that the 0.022 I had been using. I tried them with the same ball/powder  combination and  my group shrank to 5/8"
for the  next 30 shots. So much  for tighter always being better.

[smylee grouch]

Would it be posible that you were deforming the ball a wee bit when you were loading the tighter combination? May be a more forgiving crown might help if that were the case.    Smylee

[Gene Carrell]

Deformation is certainly possible. Both  loads 'seemed' to  load about the same and were not difficult. I am also considering that the denium was lubed on-the-spot and the thinner patches were prelubed and soaked through. Recovered patches did not indicate any problem. All looked good enough to reuse.

[BrownBear]

Hmmph.  It makes me wonder if different lubes were used, and if there might be some value in trying the lube from the thinner patches on  the thicker ones. Fun to think that using the lube from the thinner on the thicker would make yet another improvement.  I've sure seen a lube change affect accuracy in both directions.

[Daryl]

Interesting, Gene. When I use that combination in my .45, I cannot tell the difference in fouling, even though I'm using 75gr. of 3f or 85gr. of 2F. They not only "foul" the same, but they both shoot identically for accuracy, as well.  the 2F does require the extra 10gr. to match the accuracy of 3F in my rifle.  All this tells me lubing at the range wasn't consistant.

All my test shooting was done at 50yards and all patches, with mink oil, LHV and Neetsfoot oil were lubed at home. All patches were saturated with lube and when loaded into the muzzle, ie: whacked flush with the muzzle's crown, left a ring of lube around the perifery of the ball, inside the patch's mouth.

You're right - the testing isn't over.Sometimes seems it's never over.

[Dphariss]

Spent time at the local range yesterday soaking up what remains  of our fine  weather  here in central Indiana. My goal was to continue wringing out a 45cal flint rifle that has not cooperated to date. Using  what I "knew" was a winning ball/patch/lube  combination, 0.445  ball/10 oz denium@about 0.022/and mink oil, I was to vary powder granulation and charge.
After some  playing around, I determined that it made little difference  in accuracy  using 2Fg or 3Fg powder, but 3Fg burned cleaner and left less fouling in the bore. I would have predicted  this. Best group was 7/8"  at 35yds with 70gr 3Fg.
I thought I was done, and then it happened. I found a partial package of pre-lubed  and  cut patches  it my box and decided to continue enjoying the morning a bit. They are only 0.015 thick, thinner that the 0.022 I had been using. I tried them with the same ball/powder  combination and  my group shrank to 5/8"
for the  next 30 shots. So much  for tighter always being better.

One lube being slicker than the other can sometimes have a bad effect on accuracy.
The reduced friction can cause increased velocity spreads.
In some of my rifles Neatsfoot oil is too slick. At least the stuff I have right now.
Sperm Whale oil, being a liquid wax, is less slick and loads a little harder but shoots better.
Neatsfoot is catchall for any animal fat oil they want to put in a Neatsfoot Oil bottle.
I am thinking about mixing it with some beeswax since Sperm Whale oil is getting harder and harder to find.
I was using tallow and it works well for fouling control but is also pretty slick.
After a lot of hair pulling I am back to the Whale oil in my hunting rifle.
The preservative oil used can cause a first round flier sometimes as well. Mine goes out high using G96 which is a superior protectant but contains Silicone.
So during hunting season I just clean the rifle, dry it and load it again.
Dan

[Roger Fisher]

Would it be posible that you were deforming the ball a wee bit when you were loading the tighter combination? May be a more forgiving crown might help if that were the case.    Smylee

Agree, A more gradual crown and go to spit. (unless you are looking for a cold weather) lube.  Too slick is not good (at least in bores we can speak of)

[docone]

My go-to is beeswax, and vegetable oil. I mix about 50/50, then add Crisco as needed to thicken it if it needs it.
I get no fouling, it smells a tad, but it does work. Doesn't seem to wet the powder either.
All I know with the accuracy, I can fire at 100yds, and the target moves. My eyes will not let me see better than that.
Getting old is not what they said it would be.

[Don Steele]

MAybe not docone...but it sure beats the alternative.

[Gene Carrell]

I think that I will pursue the lube angle  on  the next time out. I'll try Daryl's prelube of my 10oz denium using  my standby mink oil. It may be a few  days since it has started  to rain here.    Incidently, the rifle has a small siler lock on it that I installed one  of Jim's deluxe tumblers in, and wow, what a difference. Lock the flint in with bevel up and does it spark and flint life is much better.

[roundball]

I think that I will pursue the lube angle  on  the next time out. I'll try Daryl's prelube of my 10oz denium using  my standby mink oil. It may be a few  days since it has started  to rain here.

I've also experienced those results.....more grease type lube hurt accuracy.
2F always produces more fouling for me than 3F except when I'm range shooting using patches glistening wet with  Hoppes...then it doesn't seem to matter...bore basically stays wiped clean with every shot.

Incidently, the rifle has a small siler lock on it that I installed one  of Jim's deluxe tumblers in, and wow, what a difference.

Major difference for sure...had Dale Johnson ugrade two of Chambers's large silers to Deluxe Silers...never a question about enough sparks, ignition is simply outstanding.  The taller hammer is also a big plus.
  

[bgf]

I would test the anomaly off the bench as rigorously as possible, at at least 50 yards.  I'm almost afraid to say it here, but I've found several similarly perplexing "paradoxes" in developing loads, where a "loose" load shoots very close to a tight one and even suits a particular situation better for me at times.  Do whatever the rifle tells you suits your situation best. 

[t.caster]

Gene, just about the time you will get that .45 figured out....along comes a .62 with GAIN TWIST, to add to your confusion! Eh?  More FUN!

[northmn]

My 20 ga smoothbore shoots better with a thinner patch than one that I can still load.  I put it down to ball deformation?  On another site some have claimed quite large differences with lubes, but they were using production rifles with shallower grooves.  If you want to add to the confusion some rifles, using a lube suitable for hunting and a clean bore will shoot significantly different tahn after being fouled and using a liquid lube.  I like to sight in a hunting rifle load different than a target load.  My little 25 likes to vertically string with hunting lubes.

DP

[FRJ]

OK kinda a statement-comment: Whale oil used to be used in positraction diff lube until 1962 at which time it became illegal to sell it in the USA.I may be off a year or so on this but preety close. So I'm wondering where a person could buy it at this late date? Frank

[Collector]

FRJ,  That's just the point... you can't buy it because it's illegal to 'advertise,' and/or 'offer' it, 'For Sale.'   It doesn't matter if you can actually prove that the whale oil predates the date/year of the enacted regulation or law.

I wouldn't make it a point of even be 'looking' or 'inquiring' (on the street) to get some.  Honestly, I think the Fed's would be more lenient on you if you were trying to buy enough SA/AK47's and drugs to start your own cartel.  Now, should someone THAT YOU KNOW, PERSONALLY, FOR A VERY LONG TIME, should have some and just give it to you, that's an entirely different matter.

It is out there.  I had a old friend in OR, that passed some years back, that had quite a stash of it that he used for his 'personal' muzzle loading shooting and oiling his locks.  What happened to it, is anybody's guess.

That said, if I am, in the least, in error, please don't hesitate to correct me.