Heavy thick Butt Stock, checkered wrist, no maker name, early?

[AntiqueGuns]

Hi Fellows, this gun is a FULL STOCK, no maker name, heavy wide butt stock.  I did not get a photo of the end of the butt but very wide, 44 1/4 inch long heavy barrel, in about .70 caliber now. The lock has a Philadelphia name on it.   
Anyone with thoughts and rariety?
The inlays are tarnished silver, not German Silver

[Dale Campbell]

Hi AG,

I have really appreciated the discussions regarding the guns you post here.  However, I have never been able to see any of the pictures.  Is there anyone else who has had this issue?

Dale C

[AntiqueGuns]

Hello, I take my photos in a denser format and then resize them, so they get very clear detail.  I am guessing your computer does not have enough RAM memory.  My photos will have more data in them, so unless you have enough memory, your computer is probably not downloading them.  But yours is the first comment, so they have been formatted correctly.

regards,
 

[rich pierce]

Could be the internet browser interfering.
I'm no expert but this looks concurrent with M. Fordney's work and there are some similarities leading me to think it's a Lancaster rifle 1810-1830.

[Dphariss]

Looks like a 1820-1840 match rifle given the heavy barrel. The Heavy barrel alone makes it rare if it weighs (or weighed 70 cal hole takes out some weight) over 12 pounds.
What is the barrel dimension at the breech and at the muzzle?

Location? 
It is similar to Fordney in some ways with the checkering but the comb and I think the toe line are a little curvy maybe .
Could be Maryland too I suppose. Armstrong used hearts behind the locks. But it does not appear to be Armstrong.

Dan

[rich pierce]

Agree there's no way it's a Fordney, the engraving is altogether different and he'd have carved it.  Just looks same era and general styling to me.  Dan's dates are probably closer to accurate.  It was a rifle obviously (double set triggers), now bored out to smoothbore.  It could have been quite a bit smaller in caliber, even under .50 if the breechplug was replaced.

[smokinbuck]

I have to agree with both Dan and Rich and also say that it was definitley a conversion to percussion.
Mark

[jdm]

Derringer?

[Tanselman]

It's a nice looking gun. I wouldn't rule out being a New England piece, despite looking so much like a PA gun. The engraved pattern in the center of the patchbox lid is NE in style, and some of the tiny details in other engraving have a somewhat NE feel, the pipes are filed in a non-standard (i.e. non-PA) manner, and the additional checkering on the grip area is more common in NE than in PA. This is not definitive, just thoughts to keep minds open as the gun is being discussed... and I've seen a couple of really fine curly maple stocked NE "Kentuckies" with big boxes, that would hardly be thought NE at first glance.   Shelby Gallien

[msmith]

When you aquire a unsigned gun, you can easily convince yourself that you are certain of the maker. You can even convince some of your collecting friends. The trouble I have found is convincing the person you are trying to sell it to. They do really get the interest though in gathering guesses.

[Buck]

Antique Guns
Here's a shot in the dark, could it be a early Leman? It certainly has the shape of a Leman, I don't know but its a beautiful rifle.
Buck

[Dphariss]

We have to be careful in judging late guns by the engraving patterns. Its more than likely that by the time this rifle was made fully engraved parts could be purchased rather than made. I don't know when Tyron  and surely others started offering this but suspect it was by the 1830s which would fit this rifle well.
Not saying this is where the engraved parts and inlays came from but its a possibility. This makes trying to "place" an engraving pattern pointless on later guns.
Tryon, according to Kauffman, was very active by the War of 1812 and as released from Military service since his business was important to the war effort.

Dan

[Tanselman]

Dan, I must disagree with your conclusion about engraving patterns, since you stated it in a general manner that inludes all engraving. Pre-engraved mountings from Tryon have rather "standardized" patterns and details, particularly in the way their scrolls and leaves are formed. Mountings engraved in regional styles still provide evidence of where the engraver probably lived, or at least learned his trade, well into the percussion era. The pre-engraved "store bought" mountings from Tryon generally have a number of consistencies in them that is decernable from independent gunsmith engraving. Engraved patterns are a major tool that assists in identifying where longrifles were made well into the 1840s and at times beyond.  Shelby Gallien

[B Shipman]

This is clearly a Maryland heavy target rifle by the likes of someone like the Clippinger, Marker, or Stonesifer families. There is to much change and variety to probably assign any individual maker in this late flint, percussion period. INMHO.

[Dphariss]

Dan, I must disagree with your conclusion about engraving patterns, since you stated it in a general manner that inludes all engraving. Pre-engraved mountings from Tryon have rather "standardized" patterns and details, particularly in the way their scrolls and leaves are formed. Mountings engraved in regional styles still provide evidence of where the engraver probably lived, or at least learned his trade, well into the percussion era. The pre-engraved "store bought" mountings from Tryon generally have a number of consistencies in them that is decernable from independent gunsmith engraving. Engraved patterns are a major tool that assists in identifying where longrifles were made well into the 1840s and at times beyond.  Shelby Gallien

"Not saying this is where the engraved parts and inlays came from but its a possibility. "

I pointed this out as a cautionary thing not as an iron clad rule. It something that must taken into account no matter how soon it might be dismissed on examination.
Its a possibility with a rifle of this time frame. In fact its a possibility in earlier eras as well.
Nor can buttplate and trigger guard castings be relied on as iron clad, these were apparently shipped around the country as well even in Colonial and Federal times. These and other parts were recycled from broken guns as well.
My point was that its risky to try to attribute a gun just on just one thing such as having what someone considered New England style engraving.

Dan

[Gaeckle]

It's interesting to see inlays of metal other than brass.....I wonder if these are coin silver with a slight tarnish to them.