Author Topic: Patterns  (Read 14247 times)

Offline mountainman

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Patterns
« on: November 17, 2008, 01:30:58 AM »
I was in the project of making my own pattern, off a photo, and tried to get it the actual size, well I never did succeed, tried to do it with the computer, and the copier machine, sighhhh, I give up. I went into a local print shop before, and got it done that way. That was okay, it only cost me a lot. ??? I was wondering if you guys had any experience of making your own patterns, and if so, how do you do it? Any help would be appreciated.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2008, 01:45:40 AM »
I used a photograph from a book to make a full scale print of the pistol I wanted to replicate.  I took it to the photocopier at one of our local business supply stores (Staples).  I came armed with a couple of dimensions knows such as barrel length.  I fooled around with the copier adding enlargement input in percentage until I produced a print of the pistol exactly (almost) full size.  It took me maybe a half hour, and cost around a dollar.
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Re: Patterns
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2008, 02:23:08 AM »
 I do the same thing at home with my printer, my old printer the cover lid was removable but not this one, I realize it was installed onto the printer but I don't want to break a hinge trying to remove it. I usually do this with a patch box or some carving detail.  ... Geo.

Seven

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2008, 02:52:31 AM »
I have a printer/scanner combo at my house.  I can scan in pictures form books and then play with the sizing until it matches the known dimensions.  I can then transfer that pattern onto the wood.  The results are pretty OK if you ask me.
-Seven

Offline ptk1126

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2008, 02:59:44 AM »
I have done this a lot on the current project of replicating a Nathan Clause rifle to cut out the brass furniture.

I have Adobe's Photoshop Elements (the cheaper, not full-blown version) which allows you
to set the scale of the printed output.

For example, if you select the Fit on Page print option you can see the scale % the computer uses, let's say 40%.  
Print it in draft form, and measure the object, toe plate for example.

If the actual size of the toe plate is 3" long and the printed output measures 4", then the actual size is 75% (3/4) of the printed
size. Multiply the scale the computer used (40%) by 75% to get the adjusted scale % (30% in this example). When you print the
next time, tell the program to use a scale of 30% and the new print will be the correct size.

When I have played with the scale % enough to get to where I want, I print the final result on heavy photo paper which is
heavy enough to use as a pattern for marking the brass piece.

I am sure other, cheaper (perhaps free) photo editing software might have a similar print feature.

All the best
Paul

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2008, 09:34:29 AM »
I scan then crop the photo into pieces my printer will handle leaving overlap in the crops.
Then print and work out the scale and tape together when I get the size right. I do this mostly with pistols, patch boxes etc.
I have done similar things with BPCR buttstocks. Longrifles I do mostly by eye.
Carving and such I look at the photo from whatever book and then draw it on a piece of paper till I am happy with it. Then I start drawing on the stock. Tracing/scanning such things I feel is a mistake. I get a lot more out of drawing the stuff than trying to trace it on. Practicing drawing in this manner makes me a lot more comfortable with and gives more understanding of the style.
In most cases its not going to be a perfect fit anyway and will require adjustments so I learn to draw the style then simply draw it on the stock and adjust as I draw it.

Dan
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2008, 04:06:28 PM »
I just draw stuff out by hand. I'm not smart enough to use all this new fangled machinery. Besides, the old timers just winged it, why can't we?
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Offline deano

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2008, 07:34:51 PM »
I have tried to do the copier trick with changing the size of the print to get the exact pattern I want, and I can usually get close. The reality of the size of the butt plate and trigger guard hardware that is available also drive final size so you should consider their dimensions and have them in hand before any cutting starts.

I used copies of a gun in the Williamsburg collection on my smooth rifle and the proportions just looked off when I tacked the photocopy of a picture on the wall and stood back to look.  I needed to adjust things to suit my vision of the gun which made it mine and not a historical reproduction.  It was a great place to start since I'll never be able to handle that gun, just don't forget take a hard look for proportions when the pattern is done.

Deano

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2008, 08:04:15 PM »
Seriously, I think drawing is underrated. It is the most direct expression of what's on your mind. I don't mean to undermine the value of photocopying and transferring artwork; I use it, it's a great tool. I want to express how important drawing is as a tool in the creation of the longrifle. drawing is not just for designing the carving, but is useful for designing the entire gun from the first concept to the final details of the engraving.

Get a sharp pencil. Start drawing. Get your hand and eye to work together. The only electricity you use will bet the juice to run your nervous system, running from eye to the brain, from brain to your hand and back again. In drawing, you train your eye see and appreciate curves and contours. This training of the eye translates from the line on paper to sculpting the contours of your stock, in other words, the skills learned in drawing are highly useful elsewhere.

You can draw anywhere, anyplace. Even if you don't have your laptop or copier with you, you can copy designs, modify them, make up plans, draw out your dreams for your next rifle. I have heard a lot of folks say they can't draw. I believe you can, but it is a learned skill, and takes time to develop. If you put the same effort into drawing that you did to learning how to drive, or building a longrifle, then you'd be a lot happier with your results. So many people want fast results, and get frustrated when things don't come out the way they want. It takes time for you to assimilate all the ideas, tools and materials of any given study.

Ah, the long winded torturous post by Acer, yet again.



« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 08:28:13 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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George F.

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2008, 08:21:32 PM »
Tom, great advice, Trouble with some of us our mind pulls up to a stop light and the engine stalls. and getting the mind hand creativity thing going is like trying to push a truck up a hill with flat tires.   ...Geo.

Offline Robby

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2008, 08:41:29 PM »
I agree Acer, anyone can learn to draw, some have a natural gift, others, it will take more time. Our state mandates children be taught art. So they have the kiddies glue newspaper cutouts together, give it a french name and call it art, HAH! What a waste of time, they could be teaching them the fundamental craft of drawing.
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2008, 08:55:08 PM »
George, love that analogy. If I may, I will store that in my repertoire, and use it at the very worst moments.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2008, 12:34:37 AM »
If we are talking about patterns for a whole rifle, I think a lot of guns come out a little wrong because they are off a pattern (I am not talking about kits here).  A precarve can work if the same parts are always used and a pattern can work if care is taken to choose parts that closely match the original.  I heard of an instance where an original was used for a precarve template and on the resulting precarved stocks, the lock panels were too thin with a barrel the size of the original.  The locks available now were too thick in the bolster to work.

If you look at several examples of any original maker's work (Beck, Dickert, Earle, Schroyer, "Haga" etc) you'll see a "pattern" that was applied creatively each time.

I think there is no alternative to planning each gun from the barrel, the lock placement on the barrel, the trigger placement in relationship to the lock, and the buttplate placement in relationship to the trigger.  Then the creative or style bits come into play.  Whenever the lock size or barrel size etc changes, things have to be changed in the plan.  I find precarves restricting because the shape that is already there is hard to overcome.

Patterns for carving are another matter.  It can be very challenging for some of us to draw well but the photocopied patterns, even blown up right, will almost always need to be tweaked to fit the space on each stock.
Andover, Vermont

Offline rsells

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2008, 01:03:35 AM »
I have use the following procedure to get a pattern when there is published information concerning known measurements on the original rifle such as trigger pull.  I choose a photograph that shows the side profile of the butt profile and as far up the forearm as possible.  I make an overhead of the photo. Then I project the photograph onto a large surface like a wall and move the projector forward or backward until I measure a known distance on the projected image that is given in the published information (such as trigger pull).  I put poster board on the wall and draw an outline of the butt stock marking the breech, trigger location, etc.  The quality of the result depends upon how vertical the original was held when the photo is made from the side.  Trying to match hardware to the profile you have can be an issue.  Also, the length of pull seems to be shorter than what we use today, so I just go with the flow and extend the lines to get the trigger pull length I desire.  Sometimes I have to change the line from the toe to the wrist to match, but I try to maintain the profile from the top of the butt up the comb through the wrist and out the barrel.
                                                             
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2008, 01:07:02 AM »
I just draw out what I want on a piece of paper, starting with the dimensions I need (drop at heel, drop at comb nose, pull, etc).  Mark those positions off, and connect the dots.

I've never tried to make a pattern from a photocopy.  I just figure that the perspective of the photo will be off enough to screw you up.

Now, I will take the photo and lightly draw a line straight back along the top edge of the fore stock, to make myself a reference line, and I can more or less go by this in relation to the positions of the heel, comb nose, rearmost part of the top of the wrist, etc.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline mountainman

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2008, 02:15:51 AM »
Thanks, for your response guys. I was just pondering over all the replies, haven't decided yet what I will do yet. On first thought, drawing by hand would be more traditional way of doing it, and it's not that I can't draw, although I do better on a smaller scale. On second thought, I like the idea of the overhead projector, what neat way that would be. Then again if you don't have it, you can't do it, unless you borrow somebody Else's. On last thought, try the copier machine again, play around and shoot up some more time :P Or else go back into the print shop!!!!! WOW Thanks guys

Offline Benedict

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2008, 02:21:46 AM »
The most valuable class I took in Bowling Green was the design class.  We spent 3 full days drawing what we saw on the screen.  It was also the hardest class.  Drawing is a skill you can learn.  I find it the hardest part of building a gun but the most rewarding.

Bruce

don getz

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2008, 02:34:45 AM »
My first reaction was, "patterns of what ?"   Are you talking about making a pattern of a whole gun, or just a part of it?
I guess it helps when you have other guns at your fingertips so that you can measure the amount of drop at the comb and at the heel, how wide to make it at the butt, etc (this requires having the proper buttplate as you are laying out the gun).  You should be able to do all of this freehand, just from looking at pictures, after you have a few of the basic dimensions.  I have enlarged patchboxes from pictures which helps a lot, but is rather easy to do.  You can also enlarge
a copy of a gun by laying out the picture in a "grid" pattern.  Lay out your picture into 1/2" squares...the whole thing.
By knowing certain dimensions of the full size gun, you can determine that, for example, each grid covers 4" of a gun.
You can then take a large piece of paper and lay it out with 4" squares.....you then copy what is in each square, but in
a bigger mode.  I am only using 4" as an example, it may not hold out to that, but this method will work........Don

Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2008, 03:15:46 AM »
I've been taking a "low -tech" approach to the pattern problem. I use a roll of Table cover paper from Costco to draw on. Use one of the std. ref books we all seem to collect and an opaque projector(check out Dick Blick art supplies). If you have a given dimension like trigger pull length you just move your projector till you come up with the measurement you need on the image. Not always easy to get the distance and all into position so you can work with it but so far so good. Not having access to genuine guns to examine this is about as good as I can do.
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Offline longcruise

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2008, 04:55:17 AM »
I have a publishing program called The Print Shop by Broderbund.  It's a fairly inexpensive program.  I'll describe what I do but first point out that other publishing programs will probably do the same thing.

Start with a photo and crop away the extraneous parts around the edge.  Got into the publishing program and select the Banner function.  Place the photo in the banner and then begin up and down sizing till it matches the size you want.  You need to know a specific length from any a to b point in your photo.  For example, if the gun in the photo has a 42" barrel, then play with the size of the photo in the banner till the barrel measures 42".  the quality of the photo makes a difference but even a low quality small size photo can get you to the basic lines.  Sometimes the full buttstock will not fit the banner and if so, once you print the banner go back and print that page after moving the photo up in the layout so you can print it and splice it in.

I have one on my wall that had a 42 inch barrel but I scaled it to a 36 inch barrel for a youth rifle.  That put the length of pull about where it belonged but the drop at the heal is a bit short.  In the end, the photo was made useful by using the top lines of the rifle photo with the heel brought down a hair and then the depth of the rifle determined by the lock barrel and butt plate.  Then a scaled down triggerguard can be selected to fit.

Hope that explanation makes sense.
Mike Lee

George F.

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2008, 05:02:10 AM »
I have a printer/scanner combo at my house.  I can scan in pictures form books and then play with the sizing until it matches the known dimensions.  I can then transfer that pattern onto the wood.  The results are pretty OK if you ask me.
-Seven
I just want to compliment Seven, what ever his name is, on the beautiful cheek carving. Nice clear, crisp job.   ...Geo.

Seven

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2008, 03:10:08 PM »
Thanks George!  I appreciate the compliment.  Most of the credit needs to go to Mr. Haines, it's his design, basically.

-Chad

J.D.

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2008, 11:08:31 PM »
Seriously, I think drawing is underrated. It is the most direct expression of what's on your mind. I don't mean to undermine the value of photocopying and transferring artwork; I use it, it's a great tool. I want to express how important drawing is as a tool in the creation of the longrifle. drawing is not just for designing the carving, but is useful for designing the entire gun from the first concept to the final details of the engraving.

Get a sharp pencil. Start drawing. Get your hand and eye to work together. The only electricity you use will bet the juice to run your nervous system, running from eye to the brain, from brain to your hand and back again. In drawing, you train your eye see and appreciate curves and contours. This training of the eye translates from the line on paper to sculpting the contours of your stock, in other words, the skills learned in drawing are highly useful elsewhere.

You can draw anywhere, anyplace. Even if you don't have your laptop or copier with you, you can copy designs, modify them, make up plans, draw out your dreams for your next rifle. I have heard a lot of folks say they can't draw. I believe you can, but it is a learned skill, and takes time to develop. If you put the same effort into drawing that you did to learning how to drive, or building a longrifle, then you'd be a lot happier with your results. So many people want fast results, and get frustrated when things don't come out the way they want. It takes time for you to assimilate all the ideas, tools and materials of any given study.

Ah, the long winded torturous post by Acer, yet again.

Right on Acer, I was one of those who couldn't draw. Never learned in grade school art class. On a whim, I took a beginning drawing class at the local community college taught by a real artist. He taught technique, as opposed to "creativity," so I really learned to draw. Developing an eye for line and form, in addition to the hand-eye coordination necessary to draw an object has, indeed, become apparent in other areas of my life.

I strongly suggest that anyone interested in any area of art; and building longrifles does include the study of the art and construction of longrifles, take some form of drawing class. You will be surprised at the results.

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2008, 03:45:25 PM »
Traditions, CVA, Pedersoli, T/C ... all exact copies built off a single pattern, one after the other coming off the assembly line and a whole lot cheaper than a gun that is hand-built .... ahhh, but they are cold and impersonal and lack the "human touch" because they are all alike .... why then would you put the "human touch" into building the gun but choose to degrade the initial work investment by applying cold and impersonal computer/copier generated artwork to it?  Look at the works of any of the "classic" artisans of carving, metalwork, clay or whatever and you'll see that symmetry is not perfect but never is their a complaint filed about it.  Collect 100 leaves from the same tree or 100 of the same kind of flower and see if you can find any two exactly alike or perfectly symmetrical from one side to the other.  Look at any carving be it on a gunstock, in metal or stone, when you see perfect symmetry from side to side or 30 oak leaves all exactly alike ... dead give-away that it was copied in some manner.

The same can be noticed in engraving, that done with chisel & hammer will have the little flat spots on tight curves, little slip marks at the start or end of a cut, small depth & width differences along a cut and of course the uneven cut marks if you look close enough - few of those "human" touches will be seen in engraving done with powered equipment.  Yes, the handpiece may still be controlled by a human but the "human powered" error factor is removed and the more human factor that is removed, the more cold and impersonal the work becomes to the point where it may as well be done on a production line by a CNC machine.

Drawing is like shooting moving targets with a rifle or pistol, if you stop to think about it, you're going to stiffen-up and never make the shot but if you let your mind run your body without conscious thought getting in the way and messing things up, you can make the shot.  Same thing when it comes to running the pencil, picture what you want the drawing to look like and let your mind run your hand.  When you get to the point where you'll let your brain run your hand by itself, you'll find things go so much easier.  Don't start with simple drawings either, draw complex images right from the start because they condition your mind and body to work together not only seeing the 3D drawing but creating it as well. 

I never had any "formal" art training.  I used to make a lot of shadow/silhouette animals and nature stuff from bailing wire, banding iron and any other junk that was laying around.  Long story short, I did some wrought iron work for a fellow, made the outline of his dog from a piece of wire while taking a break, turned out he was a painting teacher in an art school.  We chatted a bit and he drilled it into my head to always look at and draw things as if doing so in 3D.  That's why it's so much easier just drawing right onto the wood, picture the carving the way you want it to look then let your mind & hand draw it as if it will be carved - you'll find that it becomes very easy and things sort of fall into place on their own.  Always start from the center and work outward.
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Offline flehto

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Re: Patterns
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2008, 04:40:14 PM »
The people that have the "artist's eye" can simply draw a LR  and whether it's their own design or copied from an original or photo, they make it look easy. For me, "getting it right" takes awhile so I resort to penciling over a butt stock in the RCA books using tracing paper and then enlarging this tracing on the computer w/ Photoshop. How much to enlarge is determined usually by the buttplate size and other specs are then adjusted to suit. At least this "method" gives me a starting point so the intended design resembles the chosen LR.  Have made 6 Bucks County LRs from my basic template and none look exactly the same because of using different hardware, but hopefully all to most people, have the Bucks County  "look".  Have tried the pure drawing method but continually run out of erasers....Fred