Author Topic: pan powder  (Read 8296 times)

camerl2009

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pan powder
« on: February 10, 2011, 11:19:03 PM »
ok so ive seen so vid's where thay tested lock speed

but whats better to use 4f,3f,2f

ive used 4f for most shooting and i made some by taking 2f in a 3/4" copper pipe with a pipe cap on both end's
the a little powder and a round ball sake it a bit and it makes a good primer


Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2011, 01:51:25 AM »
Depends, target shooters seem to leaning toward the very fine null B which is approx 7f.  Hunters are finding more going to same powder for prime as for main charge.  Depends on what you are doing and what makes you happy. 

camerl2009

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2011, 02:06:35 AM »
Depends, target shooters seem to leaning toward the very fine null B which is approx 7f.  Hunters are finding more going to same powder for prime as for main charge.  Depends on what you are doing and what makes you happy. 

well i cant get swiss here only goex i want the fastest ignition possible

Offline Ken Prather

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2011, 02:52:45 AM »
I usually use whats in my main horn... If I have trouble, I go to my little priming horn that has FFFF.

If that don't work, then i go home.

K
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Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2011, 07:25:33 AM »
The conventional practice has been to use 4FG as the priming powder.  You aren't likely to notice any difference between it and Null B anyway.  Now that will probably start an argument but unless you have a finely tuned lock there are other things which will cost you ignition time much greater than that powder difference. 

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2011, 07:34:00 PM »
The conventional practice has been to use 4FG as the priming powder.  You aren't likely to notice any difference between it and Null B anyway.  Now that will probably start an argument but unless you have a finely tuned lock there are other things which will cost you ignition time much greater than that powder difference. 

When Larry Pletcher first started to look at locks and ignition speed in flintlocks the subject of pan powder behavior came up.  This was the "seed" for his initial work in this subject.  He found that the action of the pan powder represented about 60% of the "lock time" with the actual mechanics of the lock function being about 40% of the time.

But as you state.  There are other factors that can change this.
Relative humidity can play a big part in lock time depending on which powder is used in the pan.

E. Ogre

Daryl

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2011, 09:50:42 PM »
Most of us here in BC use & like 4F GOEX, Cameral2009.  Guys say it absorbs moisture faster than 3F - but we don't see that here.  In Ontario you have higher ambient humidity than we have - perhaps that's a criteria for choice (if indeed 3F is slower to absorb misture).

I know that when I have water in the pan, it's from the fouling, not the powder choice.  Wiping out that wet fouling with a dry cloth or paper towel leaves me with a dry pan for the 4F and then ignition is what it should be.

4F GOEX is faster than 3F GOEX- Larry's tests proved that - good enough for me.  I have used 3f out of necessity, but always went back to my preference which is 4F.

Offline hanshi

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2011, 02:15:14 AM »
I've always used 4f for prime.  Null B, etc, may be even faster but any difference would be lost on me like a fine imported wine is on a redneck....present company excluded, of course. ;D
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camerl2009

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2011, 03:35:02 AM »
Most of us here in BC use & like 4F GOEX, Cameral2009.  Guys say it absorbs moisture faster than 3F - but we don't see that here.  In Ontario you have higher ambient humidity than we have - perhaps that's a criteria for choice (if indeed 3F is slower to absorb misture).

I know that when I have water in the pan, it's from the fouling, not the powder choice.  Wiping out that wet fouling with a dry cloth or paper towel leaves me with a dry pan for the 4F and then ignition is what it should be.

4F GOEX is faster than 3F GOEX- Larry's tests proved that - good enough for me.  I have used 3f out of necessity, but always went back to my preference which is 4F.

its sucks that we only have 2 importer's here one in BC and one here in ONT and yes it humid here in the summer

LURCHWV@BJS

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2011, 04:15:08 PM »
Camerl2009,

  I'm on my first rocklock,  started using 3f on main charge and 7f on the prime.  Mainly because that's whatthe powder supplier reccomended.  Several people here told me to use the same powder as my main charge in priming.  I see no difference.  Now I have less to carry.   Daryl has a wealth of info when it come to shooting,  He is one of three people  I go to when I have a shooting question.   Good resource's here.

    Rich

Offline Kopfjaeger

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 06:46:04 AM »
4F in nice weather and 3F in bad weather.
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2012, 02:51:24 AM »
I prefer NullB because I can get it locally & it is indeed fast.

For a while thought I'd be authentic & use the same stuff in the pan as for the charge. Had sufficient flash-in-the-pans with my Caywood to change my mind. NullB is great poured into Danny C.'s wonderful (not) outside coned flash hole.

Down by the Clinton River in the summer I do not like NullB quite so much because of moisture.

Don't know how it compares with FFFFg in that respect, I've both Swiss and du Pont but not used for awhile. 
Never got into GOEX.

Daryl

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2012, 03:14:35 AM »
Cam - watch the videos again, along with reading the comments on timing - it should be obvious that for us, 4F GOEX is best. Yes- it sucks not being able to get null B or 7F or evern Swiss 4F which is a bit faster than GOEX 4F IIRC. The fastest prime will deliver the best accuracy due to reducing lock time. You may not know it, as many have stated they cannot tell the difference between 2f and 4F - while I don't understand that, I'll take their word for it, but know that the ball and sight/gun alignment knows the difference.

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2012, 12:54:55 AM »
Cam - watch the videos again, along with reading the comments on timing - it should be obvious that for us, 4F GOEX is best. Yes- it sucks not being able to get null B or 7F or evern Swiss 4F which is a bit faster than GOEX 4F IIRC. The fastest prime will deliver the best accuracy due to reducing lock time. You may not know it, as many have stated they cannot tell the difference between 2f and 4F - while I don't understand that, I'll take their word for it, but know that the ball and sight/gun alignment knows the difference.

Hi Daryl,
I've been thinking this all over, and I thought come at this from the lab standpoint (that's using the word "lab" loosely.)  While timing locks, priming powder, etc these many years, I have a couple if ideas about the ability to detect differences in flint ignition speeds.

For the first 15 years or so, firing a flintlock during trials meant pressing the spacebar on my computer.  In the last 10 years or so the ignition has been by pressing a button.  In both cases there is no intimate contact with the lock. In these trials it is nearly impossible to detect differences.  Times must be 20% different to guess well.   ( I have had other shooters with me at times trying to predict fast or slow trials with the same result.)   I attribute this to having the lock separated from me by the electronics and other mechanical parts.

This leads me to an unproven generalization:  The more intimate the connection between lock and shooter, the more likely the shooter can predict a difference in times.  I find that I am better predicting times with a single unset trigger than I can with a double set trigger.  My most recent flintlock with a single trigger came from Jim Chambers.  It is the lightest and best unset trigger I have ever used - no creep, breaks like a S&W.  I'd guess that differences in ignition can be better felt with this type of setup than with a DS trigger.

I still maintain that human senses are terrible tools to measure these small differences.  In discussing the difference between ffg and ffffg,  I recorded wider variations in 2fg than with 4fg or 3fg.  I must be remembered that my results were the averages of 20 trials, with wide variations within those trials.  Throw in the variables connected to flint edges, vents, etc and it becomes a quagmire. 

One last thing: In my results, time ends with pan ignition.  On a gun we're judging ignition from pan to barrel ignition.   The vent plays an even bigger role in barrel ignition, and adds the biggest monster variable of all - save perhaps flint edge.  Because of this, I feel we likely blame flintlocks for slow times that were caused by fouled vents.

It's my belief that the shooter who knows his lock and maintains it expertly is the guy with the best performing gun.  To paraphrase the old golfer, "The better I care for my lock and vent, the higher my scores become."

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2012, 01:00:05 AM »
ok so ive seen so vid's where thay tested lock speed

but whats better to use 4f,3f,2f

ive used 4f for most shooting and i made some by taking 2f in a 3/4" copper pipe with a pipe cap on both end's
the a little powder and a round ball sake it a bit and it makes a good primer



FFFF throws few large flaming particles around and is faster and can be worked through a vent easier.

I don't grind powder, makes too much dust.
Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2012, 01:04:32 AM »
Cam - watch the videos again, along with reading the comments on timing - it should be obvious that for us, 4F GOEX is best. Yes- it sucks not being able to get null B or 7F or evern Swiss 4F which is a bit faster than GOEX 4F IIRC. The fastest prime will deliver the best accuracy due to reducing lock time. You may not know it, as many have stated they cannot tell the difference between 2f and 4F - while I don't understand that, I'll take their word for it, but know that the ball and sight/gun alignment knows the difference.

A friend of mine has a heavy match flintlock he put a scope on. He claims even with this heavy rifle, 25 pounds or so, the cross hairs move 4" on a 100 yard target with the lock fires. Lock is a Twigg with a reshaped plate.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2012, 01:10:40 AM »
I prefer NullB because I can get it locally & it is indeed fast.

For a while thought I'd be authentic & use the same stuff in the pan as for the charge. Had sufficient flash-in-the-pans with my Caywood to change my mind. NullB is great poured into Danny C.'s wonderful (not) outside coned flash hole.

Down by the Clinton River in the summer I do not like NullB quite so much because of moisture.

Don't know how it compares with FFFFg in that respect, I've both Swiss and du Pont but not used for awhile. 
Never got into GOEX.

I never have problems with FFFF or Null B getting wet unless exposed to liquid water.
But I live in Montana.
I have been using Null B too but I am down to about 1/2 pound or less now.

Dan
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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2012, 04:13:43 AM »
Dan got us back on topic, and I rambled too much. To answer the question about 4fg vs 2fg, I like 4fg (null b) for three main reasons:

1. It's FAST

2. It can be trickled into a vent in case of a dry ball.  I've done this on my gun and helped others with this.

3. I dislike handling my main horn and stopper twice.  With a bum hand, it's easier to use a priming horn with a valve.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
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Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Daryl

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2012, 06:21:04 PM »
Being able to trickle 4f through the vent has been an important 'save' on our trail walk several times a year, it seems. We do have a stainless rod complete with a plastic box of drills and ball screws at the first station on the course.  The 'kit' suplied by Taylor, hangs in a spruce tree and is complete with a claw attached tothe tree for holding the handle while you pull your rifle away - this pulls the ball. Very handy, very slick.  With the fairly long 55 or so shot course through the bush, it's faster many times, to just dribble in a little 4F and fire the ball out.

Offline Kermit

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2012, 07:51:05 PM »
4f Goex cuz I have a couple of pounds and it works. I don't spend much effort tinkering with my rockcrushers like some do. Once it's quick to my ears and reliable, I just go shooting. It's just me.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Vomitus

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Re: pan powder
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2012, 10:00:37 PM »
Being able to trickle 4f through the vent has been an important 'save' on our trail walk several times a year, it seems. We do have a stainless rod complete with a plastic box of drills and ball screws at the first station on the course.  The 'kit' supplied by Taylor, hangs in a spruce tree and is complete with a claw attached to the tree for holding the handle while you pull your rifle away - this pulls the ball. Very handy, very slick.  With the fairly long 55 or so shot course through the bush, it's faster many times, to just dribble in a little 4F and fire the ball out.
...so that's what that thing is for! ;D