Author Topic: Scratch-built locks (Read 56392 times)

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #50 on:** November 16, 2011, 10:54:02 PM »

Guys,

I am not lighting the forge, but these photos should show how the jig is used for the challenging job of forging a flint cock. Just pretend that the iron is orange hot and the sweat is dripping in your eyes. Never forge wrought iron red - keep it at least orange hot.

Here are two photos of the bending jig blocks. The pins are 1/4 inch diameter and are threaded into the blocks.

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Here are two photos of forged cocks. I rough finish the lower jaw & thumb piece before doing the second bend. Notice the split ends at the bottom of one of the cocks, very typical of wrought iron forgings, but rare in steel.

Here are photos of the "hot" cock being forged in the jig blocks. The blocks would be held in a big post vice and the distance between the pins adjusted to make the gunsmith happy. I use a Siler cock as a gauge to set the distance.

When making a hot bend in wrought iron it is better to tap the hot metal on the exterior of the bend to form it around the pin rather than pulling it around like a lever. When you pull the iron around a bend as is often done with steel, the wrought iron grain can open up and ruin the piece. When the tumbler hole area is forged to widen/flatten, the piece will pass from the jig to the anvil, back to the jig then to the anvil, et cetera until the gunsmith is happy. This is not a simple one shot deal.

Jim Everett

Robby · « **Reply #51 on:** November 17, 2011, 02:14:10 AM »

Mr. Everett,
Forging metal is very interesting to me. Watching someone that knows what they are doing, and trying to anticipate their next move is fascinating. I am usually wrong! I may never do this, but then, I'm doing a lot of things I thought I would (could) never do. I just picked up some nineteenth century real wrought iron, so who knows. Thank you for taking the time to do this.
Robby

AeroE · « **Reply #52 on:** November 17, 2011, 03:39:26 AM »

Thanks.

Acer,

I have complete understanding of the work involved in writing and posting tutorials. Also the aggravation that comes when they are overlooked and unnecessary questions are asked time and again.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #53 on:** November 17, 2011, 04:58:57 AM »

Jim, I am amazed at you near net-shape forging. I think in an ideal world, that's how it would be. But I know if I tried this, I'd be filing and sawing all the lumps off. Great work.

dannybb55 · « **Reply #54 on:** November 17, 2011, 06:37:34 AM »

Jim, Thanks, I had it figgered that you used a 1/4 in round nosed fuller to fuller the curves in,bending forks work well too. I will give it a shot this weekend and copy an old english lock cock in cheap steel this weekend, and try to get some pictures.
Danny

dannybb55 · « **Reply #55 on:** November 17, 2011, 01:31:34 PM »

Jim, Here is a link to the lock that I want to build a trade gun around, circa 1600s: http://briangodwin.co.uk/images/Type1/11%20Chirk-Dunster%20in.jpg It seems more anvil time and less vice time was invested in these locks. TRS has the castings for something similar but not the plate and of course they aren't iron. When you use the Siler as a model, are you more concerned with geometry or shape?

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #56 on:** November 17, 2011, 04:36:28 PM »

Danny,

Good luck on the 1600's lock! The link shows these really early ones that I am sure will be a great challenge. Yes, I "cheat" by using the large Siler as a model. Certainly for geometry and much less so for shape.

Specifically - I use the Siler lock plate to position the holes for the parts. When I make a detachable pan lock I use an old Siler plate that I have removed the small block on the pan interior to give a smooth inner surface. After the iron plate is roughly smooth on inside/outside I "glue" the Siler plate to it using Elmers glue. Then I can locate punch the mounting holes using the Siler holes as a guide and I can shape the outside by filing to the Siler outside (if I wish - or not). Look at the 2 locks posted on 14 November and you can see the result.

For a lock with a forge welded pan I use a Siler plate that has the pan area cut away more to fit around the pan on the iron plate.

Oh yes - some hot water and the Elmers glue releases after you are done..

The holes that I do not use the Siler plate for are the pin holes for the mainspring and for the frizzen spring. I do punch these locations, but I drill the holes after the springs are finished - I just find this easier for the spring making.

After this the geometry is set and set correctly. Then the shape of the lock can be either a flat German, flat English, rounded English or whatever you wish.

Jim Everett

dannybb55 · « **Reply #57 on:** November 18, 2011, 05:00:36 AM »

Did you notice on some of these English locks how many mainspring holes are jumbled together on the plate? The smith made the spring and then drilled his hole, Nice technique.

camerl2009 · « **Reply #58 on:** November 18, 2011, 06:32:11 AM »

hmm id love to see some video of this

alot of your process seems to match hand forging the muzzleloading gun lock book but i do like your jig a little better for making the cock what are you making the frizzen out

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #59 on:** November 18, 2011, 03:10:08 PM »

Guys,

I have made the frizzens from a variety of materials. It is boring to do the same thing every time. In truth, I like to get experience by trying different methods that were used 250 years ago.

Specifically I have forged frizzens in three ways.

1. Case hardened wrought iron. This is the most difficult because even after you forge and finish the frizzen, it must be hardened. I use 1/3 bone charcoal, 1/3 leather charcoal, 1/3 hardwood charcoal. The soft frizzen is covered in the charcoal, put in a small metal pot - I use an old lead melting pot with a flat metal plate lid. Next the pot is heated orange in a forge for several hours. This is boring so I try to have some other hot job to do during this time. I take the frizzen out of the charcoal, reheat to orange and quench in brine. I have no idea how deep hardened surface is, but the frizzens last a long time.

2. Sole plate frizzen. Here the wrought iron frizzen remains soft and a thin plate of steel is riveted to the face. I use 1095 and three iron rivets, then the whole thing is hardened. The drawback to this method is when the frizzen is quenched the sole plate tends to warp giving a tiny gap in places between the iron frizzen and the sole plate. I have not found a solution. I know of other gunsmiths who solder the sole plate on, but this would seem to me that the sole plate is softened in the process.

3. Forge the entire frizzen out of 1095, finish and harden. This way seems to be the best.

Jim Everett

dannybb55 · « **Reply #60 on:** November 19, 2011, 06:56:00 PM »

I brazed a sole plate on an old battery once with no gaps and dropped it in water to quench it.A couple of turns on my grind stone and she was ready.

dannybb55 · « **Reply #61 on:** November 22, 2011, 03:11:52 AM »

Any chance that you will teach a seminar one day?

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #62 on:** November 28, 2011, 12:10:14 AM »

Guys,

Here are some photos of the jig I use to ensure that the lock geometry stays correct. As discussed in the posting earlier on 17 November, I use a Siler lock plate that has been modified to locate the screw holes for the lock internals. I have ground off the lump on the Siler interior to give a smooth inner surface. Also I have ground off the detachable pan area to fit around the flash pan when I make a lock with the pan forge welded on. I am sure that you can envision how the pan would be in the way without the large clearance. I glue the Siler plate onto the in process lock plate with Elmer's glue, then punch locate all of the holes and also I can shape the lock exterior using the outside of the Siler as a guide (if I choose the make a lock with the Siler outside shape). Hot water releases the Elmer's glue and I have all the holes located in their proper positions. I drill through all the holes with the exception of the mainspring and frizzen spring pin locations. I usually wait until after making the springs to set their final locations. You can see that these holes are not drilled on the in process lock plate.

Jim Everett

dannybb55 · « **Reply #63 on:** November 28, 2011, 02:19:00 AM »

Nice, do you use any depth or thickness gauges like the British shops used for internal parts checking?

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #64 on:** November 28, 2011, 02:56:41 AM »

Danny,

I do not use any depth or thickness gauges to make the locks. I would like to see any photos of gauges if you have them. The only gauge I use is a go-nogo pin gauge to determine the correct hole size for the 0.174-30 tap. If I use the 18th c spade drill with a square reamer there is really no other way of telling when the hole is the correct size. When I use modern twist drills I just drill the hole to a 0.147 diameter which cuts out a huge amount of time and ends up with the same hole. Maybe later I can post the rather involved process of getting the 0.147 hole using 18th c methods & tools.

Jim

dannybb55 · « **Reply #65 on:** November 28, 2011, 05:09:13 AM »

Jim, I have run across some photos of go no go gauges for the RSA at Leeds, UK and the Halls rifle at Harper s Ferry somewhere on the internet. The British made brass gauges out of small sheets of brass that were cut , filed and marked in such a way that a complete set had all of the critical dimensions for a Pattern Room firearm. Each subcontractor got a certain set such as a Lock set and rough forgings could be finished at the bench and carefully checked for fit. The inspectors and assembles could recheck with more supplied Gauges and finished parts could be stored at the armouries until needed. If I can ever find the photos again, I will post them here.
Danny

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #66 on:** November 28, 2011, 06:00:10 AM »

Danny,

Now I know what you mean by the gauges. I have seen the collection of the go-nogo gauges that are on display at Harpers Ferry. These things are surely wonderful works of art by themselves. It is well worth the trip to see them at the Harpers ferry NHS, they are beautiful. For the "shade tree" gunsmith who makes a gunlock every once in a while, such gauges would not serve the same purpose as they did at the mass production armories. I guess the only other gauge that I use is the stops between the cutting surfaces of my tumbler mill. I tend to make the tumbler somewhat thicker than those used in modern locks.

Jim Everett

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #67 on:** November 28, 2011, 06:23:01 AM »

Guys,

Here is a photo of the go-nogo gauge that I use to determine when the lock screw blank hole has been reamed to the proper dimension. If you look closely you can see the line where the pin diameter increases by a few thousanth of an inch. The hole is good when the first part of the pin passes, but the second part is too big. As you can see, this is really unsophisticated, but it works and it is necessary.

The last photo shows the square reamer as it would be used to open the hole up the the proper diameter for the tap.

Jim Everett

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #68 on:** November 28, 2011, 07:08:49 AM »

Jim, When you say you drill al the holes except the ones for the pegs on the springs, my old dusty light bulb lit up. Duh, well, of course you'd drill the spring hole afterwards, once you've got the spring made. That allows you to position the spring.

My backwards way is to fit a spring to a lock with an existing peg hole. Then the hook is the dimension I have to create exactly, which is pretty hard to do. It would be better to plug/weld the peg hole, and then redrill it upon fitting the spring.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #69 on:** November 28, 2011, 05:54:40 PM »

Back when I was making rebuild kits for the Pedersoli-Gibbs long range muzzle loader locks,I had to fit a new main spring to an existing hole. I have one of the locks that was new and used it as a gauge for everything except the sear spring. The mainspring was formed and then the stud filed in from an area in the upper limb that was left a bit wide just for that purpose. It isn't hard to do.
On new locks,the stud is in place and the spring has not yet been opened or spread to set the preloading. I set the tumbler at full cock and locate the spot in the plate where the stud must be located,mark it and drill it with a #44 drill.The stud is also ,085 so that works well
and looks good.
My locks for the last 41 years have used the link or "stirrup"mainspring connector. I abandoned the old sliding ramp/progressive radius type springs altogether.
I have been asked to make these again for different makes of locks that have had trouble with cast mainsprings but I would have to make new tools(a forming die) for this, and buy the various locks that use them for test vehicles,
It makes me tired to even think about it.

Bob Roller

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #70 on:** December 08, 2011, 03:37:07 PM »

Guys,

The tapered square reamer may seem to be an unusual tool to many of us here. But thinking on the history of gunlock making, this "weird" kind of tool was used for a much longer time period than the modern chucking reamer familiar to all machinists today. Actually, if you ever try one of these original style tools you will certainly be suprised at how aggressive a cut is made by a tapered square reamer. It really removes a lot of metal quickly.

If the smith wished to be a bit less agressive in the cut, he could use a reamer with even more than four sides. Are you kidding? Really, the old time smiths used reamers with up to 8 sides for a more gentle cut. Even round reamers, if we can call them by that name, were used to give a hole just a burnish.

Here is a photo of some of these. The top reamer has 8 sides and the bottom has 5. Note the top reamer has been modified to fit into a modern brace chuck by grinding the relief for the chuck fingers to grab. The 18th c greae did not need this feature.

This photo is from the mid 18th c catalog of tools by John Wyke and shows the variety of tapered reamers he sold.

Jim Everett

Bob Roller · « **Reply #71 on:** December 08, 2011, 06:08:28 PM »

In 1957,I worked at a hardware store here in Huntington WV that still had square reamers in stock. Back when America was an industrial nation and before belchburgers became the main supporting industry,a lot of harware stores had NOS--New Old Stock items still in the shelves with the old prices still on them because the owners knew that they would never renew that kind of inventory again. The one I worked in was J.L.Cook and they did not believe in trying to do business from an empty shelf. They had almost every kind and cut of file made by all the best makers and every size of drill bit on the chart,same for taps and dies. Also all the best in precision measuring tools. I have all my Starrett micrometers that I bought there along with other high quality tools.
Thanks for reminding me of a day now gone but still fresh in memory.

Bob Roller

dannybb55 · « **Reply #72 on:** December 09, 2011, 02:51:08 AM »

Jim, I bought a few of those on E Bay, just to see how they were made and I plan to make some after I beat back the Honey Do list. I dismounted my small vice and found the set marks on the off side for the bow drill just like your's. Do you have a Smith's hack saw somewhere or do you use one of those godawful lightweight modern jobs with the cheap blades? 15 years back, I used to turn out a forged hack saw frame in less that an hour and a 1 inch wide blade would cut for a year as long as I used it less 5 days a week and cut steel less than 2 inches square.
Danny

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #73 on:** December 09, 2011, 06:51:39 AM »

Danny,

Thanks for the response. Many of the 18th c bench vices and some of the post vices have those strange dimples for the bow drills. As for the hack saws, I use two. The first is a large frame hacksaw, I use a modern blade here with the teeth facing away, just like a modern hacksaw. It really is nice to use as the frame does seem to be more stout than the modern ones.

The second is a much smaller and lighter frame that I carry in my journeyman's box. With this one I find that reversing the teeth is better, it cuts on the pull.

The last photo is from the John Wyke catalog showing a typical 18th c hacksaw.

Somewhere in the junk of my shop I have an original blade for one of these saws. It has been sharpened so many times that the teeth form a rainbow curve, It is neat looking, but I don't use it.

Jim Everett

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #74 on:** December 17, 2011, 07:38:43 PM »

Guys,

Here is the original hacksaw blade that came with the smaller of the above two saw frames. You can see the "rainbow" curve of the blade caused as the teeth were resharpened repeatedly during its life. It is hard to tell the age of such rarities, but certainly it is functionally identical with 18th c blades. The teeth do not have any kerf that I can see, nor do they have any directional bias. It appears that the blade will "cut" the same on the push stroke as on the pull staoke. Notice the quotation marks around the word "cut"! It does not appear that this blade would cut as efficiently as the modern ones. When I use the saw frames above, I use modern blades that I have removed the paint and blued so they look correct, but actually cut metal. Looks closely at the frame photos and you can see. Have you have ever wondered why 18th c gunsmiths so often forged and hot cut the iron rather than cut the metal with a hacksaw? Now you know.

P.S. - I only take 18th c gun building so far. I don't make my own blades, life may be too short for that.

Jim Everett

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Author Topic: Scratch-built locks (Read 56392 times)

AeroE

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