The right granulation for muzzle loaders

[sirdutch]

I have purchased fff Goex (3 F ) blackpowder and was wondering if I can use this in my contemporary flintlock long rifle. (.45 cal).
Some folks that I have talked to say you can use the 3 f Goex for the barrel charge and the flash pan and some have said that it was not advisable to do so and insist that I use only 2 F for the barrel charge. Perhaps I should reduce the loading when using 3 F BP to accommodate for it's finer grained properties.

What do you guys (or for that matter, gals who like this past time) think. I have been getting all the things I need to shoot my rifle for the first time and have been reading up on the safety issues related to the subject like never using smokeless powder, checking for barrel obstruction of any kind and never handing off my rifle or accepting any rifle that I have not personally loaded myself. I want to be ready to have some fun without being or looking foolish. I don't want to injure myself or others.

Thanks,

Sirdutch

[Harnic]

3f is perfectly safe in a 45 cal, I have used it exclusively in 45, 50, 54, & 58 cal rifles & always had very good performance.  I can't say it's better than 2f because I've never used 2f, but from a safely standpoint & lack of fouling, it's great.  Go ahead & try it.  Your rifle will let you know if it doesn't like it.  I have used it in the pan in a pinch & it works fine, but I prefer 4f for prime.

[sirdutch]

Thank you friend. I will get some 4 f if he has some in stock. Otherwise I will just try the 3 f in the pan.

Sirdutch

[Candle Snuffer]

I agree with Harnic.  I have used 2fg in my .45 Dickert and used a 4fg prime.  Mostly I use 3fg in all my rifles
as well with a 4fg prime.  I have used 3fg as a main charge and 3fg for prime and found it to work well.  I
once even tested 2fg as the main charge with a 2fg prime and it worked also - but I did detect slower ignition
with that combo.

[BJH]

FFFG is just fine safety wise for normal loads in .45 cal. I have had good luck with it in calibers up to .58. If you get the oppertunity to get some FFG try that, some folks get better acuracy with it. Each gun is a law unto itself, they all have likes and dislikes.  BJH

[Dphariss]

I have used fff in 58s with no problems for several years.
I thing the phobia about powder granulations is irrelevant unless FFFF is used as a propellant.
I consider FF and FFF to be almost the same in most RB guns.
In larger bores, over 58, FF will work well. It will also work well in smaller bores, perhaps very well. But its NOT a requirement.

Dan

[Bob Roller]

I have used 3fg in everything from 31 caliber Colt and Whitney pocket revolvers to 10 gauge shotguns since 1951 and had no problems whatever.I can't tell any difference in using it as a primer for  flintlock either. Unless there is a gross flaw in the barrel as might occur with a relic,one can of 3fg will service anything on the rack or in the holster.

Bob Roller

[elk killer]

i agree with Bob, used only 3f in everything, and only ever used 3 to prime with as well,
makes for one horn, bear grease for patch lube, simple water clean up,,keeps things simple and cheap..
worked for 45 yrs now see no reason for any changes

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

I've used both 2f and 3f in my 50 cal. I think 3f fouls a little less with repeat firings at the range. I have also primed with 3f and 2f in my old musket. For my rifle now my preference is 3f for the main charge, and prime with 4f, I think it is faster. Maybe just in my mind, but isn't that where half of the game of shooting is?

[Roger Fisher]

I have used 3fg in everything from 31 caliber Colt and Whitney pocket revolvers to 10 gauge shotguns since 1951 and had no problems whatever.I can't tell any difference in using it as a primer for  flintlock either. Unless there is a gross flaw in the barrel as might occur with a relic,one can of 3fg will service anything on the rack or in the holster.

Bob Roller

Bob welcome,welkum we'll all look forward to your expertise

[hanshi]

Like many others I normally use 3F in guns from .32 up to .62.  If I have to use 2F for some reason I don't worry even then.  I prime with 4F but 3F works just fine.

[Daryl]

In my .40 and .45, I have accuracy loads for both 3F and 2F, so whatever I've got in stock, works identically, ie: shoots to the sights and with identical accuracy. 

I find no difference in repeated loaded to over 100 shots whether I've using 2F or 3F in my rifles.  They foul, indentically - zilch, nadda, none at all & they are not wiped until I get home after all the shooting is over.

One of these days, I'll take the .32 out and find it's accuracy load in 2F as well. I suspect it will be around 40gr. 2F GOEX- or perhaps a bit more as it currently prefers 35gr. of 3F GOEX.

The only difference I've found between 2f and 3F as main charge, is that it takes more 2F to match the accuracy of the best 3F load.  No difference in fouling. 

In both the .40 and .45, I need to use 10gr. more 2F than 3F - when using slippery lubes like LHV, Hoppe's, Shenendoah Lube, Neetsfoot or Mink Oils.  Water based lubes will shoot with identical accuracy with 10gr. LESS powder than the 3F oils or grease lubed patches.  It only takes 5gr. more 2F to match water based accuracy with 3F.

[sirdutch]

Hello,

It has been awhile. Thanks to everyone for your help.

What would you guys recommend for a powder charge for my .45 cal as far as Goex FFFG (3F) is concerned. I'll be using a .440 round ball. 75 grains perhaps? I don't plan on using conicals in my contemporary flintlock or at least not yet. I would like to get some authoritative loading date for this  old gun.

Thanks!

[roundball]

Hello,

It has been awhile. Thanks to everyone for your help.

What would you guys recommend for a powder charge for my .45 cal as far as Goex FFFG (3F) is concerned. I'll be using a .440 round ball. 75 grains perhaps? I don't plan on using conicals in my contemporary flintlock or at least not yet. I would like to get some authoritative loading date for this  old gun.

Thanks!

Not sure what you're going to use it for but as one reference, my .45cal loads are:

GENERAL PURPOSE RANGE PLINKING
50grns Goex 3F / .022" patch / .440" ball

DEER (Eastern Whitetail) HUNTING
90grns Goex 3F / .022" patch / .440" ball

I've always found Goex 3F to be fast and accurate, and cleaner burning than 2F...

[bigsmoke]

Well, the simple fact of the matter is that we cannot sit here at the computer and tell you what your rifle is going to like.

Your rifle will tell you what it wants, and each rifle seems to be a law unto itself.

My advise is to start with a load of 1 grain per caliber, in your case 45 grains, and shoot a three shot group off a bench.  I like to do this at 25 yards, as that alleviates problems like wind drift and vision problems, etc.  Mark your target with load data.  Set a fresh target.

Increase your charge by 5 grains and repeat the process.  Do not change any of the other variables like patch thickness, rb diameter, lube, etc.

Increase your charge by 5 grains and repeat the process.

As you go through this process, you will notice the grouping should get progressively tighter.  At some point, you will notice that the group will start to open up a bit.  You have just found your maximum accurate load.  If it is still not completely satisfactory, you can then play with fine tuning the load.  Change only one thing at a time.  And, as long as you are hitting on the paper, don't worry about changing sight settings, do that after you have your load figured out.

As regards you previous question, I don't think it makes a lot of difference whether you use Ffg or Fffg in your .45, as long as you tailor your load for the powder granulation.  Personally, I am a Ffg user, and I put it in everything from my .45 to the .72, including my Ruger Old Army.  I usually use Fg in the big guns, but have experimented with Ffg in the 8 bore.  Made a 100 fps difference.

[Daryl]

Well, the simple fact of the matter is that we cannot sit here at the computer and tell you what your rifle is going to like.

Your rifle will tell you what it wants, and each rifle seems to be a law unto itself.

My advise is to start with a load of 1 grain per caliber, in your case 45 grains, and shoot a three shot group off a bench.  I like to do this at 25 yards, as that alleviates problems like wind drift and vision problems, etc.  Mark your target with load data.  Set a fresh target.

Increase your charge by 5 grains and repeat the process.  Do not change any of the other variables like patch thickness, rb diameter, lube, etc.

Increase your charge by 5 grains and repeat the process.

As you go through this process, you will notice the grouping should get progressively tighter.  At some point, you will notice that the group will start to open up a bit.  You have just found your maximum accurate load.  If it is still not completely satisfactory, you can then play with fine tuning the load.  Change only one thing at a time.  And, as long as you are hitting on the paper, don't worry about changing sight settings, do that after you have your load figured out.
As regards you previous question, I don't think it makes a lot of difference whether you use Ffg or Fffg in your .45, as long as you tailor your load for the powder granulation.  Personally, I am a Ffg user, and I put it in everything from my .45 to the .72, including my Ruger Old Army.  I usually use Fg in the big guns, but have experimented with Ffg in the 8 bore.  Made a 100 fps difference.

pure gold

[smylee grouch]

I shoot 60 gr. 3f swiss in my old original plains rifle and it shoot great. I could shoot more I supose but 60 grs. gets the job done on 50 yd. deer and I want to be nice to the old gal so 60 is where I stop. Your rifle will have its own preference just as everyone has said. Its fun just working up the best load. Good luck and good shooting.   Smylee

[Daryl]

Like the guys say, they are all different. My 60" twist x 42" long GM barrel prefers with an oil based lube, 75gr. 3F and 85gr. 2f for it's accuracy loads.  Of course, the 2,200+fps those loads deliver puts them in good stead for hunting, but for me, it's just a trail walk rifle. Both loads shoot 1/2" 5 shot groups measured centre to centre at 50 yards off a rest.

Like my 40 cal with 48" twist, the accurcy load with 2f is exactly 10gr. more than with 3F, both GOEX.  This spread is common with most barrels.

Bear in mind, different lubes can change not only the load, but the spread and/or order of the spread as well.

[sirdutch]

Thank you for your input guys. I'm kind of a stickler for preparation with my new black powder rifle interest. Now that I have my possibles bag to put all my accouterments in, I feel like I'm ready to give things a go. 

I will be meeting a friend of mine at a local range to start the learning process on what my rifle likes. He is bringing an old friend of his that is an old hand at muzzle loading rifles. I'm looking forward to meeting the old gent. I'm an old man too but I feel like a kid with a new toy! (Of course a rifle is not a toy but well... you might know what I mean)

Thanks again for all the help that I've gotten here on this forum

[Stormrider51]

Everyone here has given good advice and by now you have been to the range and started learning what your rifle likes.  I hope it went well but don't stop there.  I recently read something that I like, that there are gun owners, shooters, and riflemen.  Gun owners are happy to own guns.  Period.  Shooters want the gun to go "BOOM" reliably and put a ball somewhere on the target.  Riflemen want to pick a button on a Redcoats uniform and punch it through him.  It's painting with a very broad brush but basically true.

There is no "right" granulation for muzzleloaders.  I was raised to believe that for anything .45 and under you used FFFg.  Anything .45 and above needed FFg.  The .45 cal would work equally well with either granulation.  It was total hogwash, my apologies to my father and grandfather who passed down these bits of wisdom to me.  I have owned rifles that "proved" these dictums to be true and others that totally ignored them.  As someone else said, each rifle is a law unto itself.  Discovering what it performs best with involves powder granulation, powder charge, patch material, lube, ball size, the phase of the moon, and whether an owl hooted outside your window last night.  I'm serious.  Okay, maybe I was stretching it a little on the last two.  But not by much because there is always that elusive "human factor" in there.  Things we expect to work often do while things we distrust often fail for us but work perfectly for someone else.  It's part of what makes this shooting game fun.  Explore all the variables and see what works for you.

Storm

[George Sutton]

Everyone of these guns likes something different. I use 3F in everything I own from .32 to .75 caliber.

Centershot