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Author Topic: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle  (Read 12814 times)

Offline gibster

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Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« on: November 14, 2011, 05:00:45 AM »
I picked this up yesterday at the Tulsa Gun show and would like to see if anyone recognizes who may have made this rifle.  The guy that I bought it from seemed to think that it was (maybe) eastern Tennessee or SW Virginia.  Could be, but I would like to narrow it down a little.  The box is different than I have seen and the nose cap is held on with two screws (see picture).  The barrel is just shy of 45-inches and around 40 - 42-caliber.  I am pretty sure that the lock is a period replacement.  The bore is packed with grease from when it was put up by the last one who used it.  I can't find any repairs to the wood. There is some paint on the lock bolt side where it hung on a wall.  the maker used a very nice piece of maple.  Overall, a very nice rifle (my opinion) and I would like to know yours.









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Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2011, 05:24:40 AM »
A great rifle, certainly east Tennessee or Western NC. area.
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Offline bgf

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 05:58:09 AM »
Your opinion is correct, in my opinion -- it is a very nice rifle!  If it is safe to take out the barrel, see if there is anything stamped on the bottom flat. 

For the sake of wild speculation: the three-screw tang looks a lot like the ones on Soddy Daisy rifles, and not much different from one on the John Selvidge (Cleveland, Tn.) rifle in Muzzle Blasts.  The elongated capbox is also in a similar style to Selvidge (as is the lock), so maybe it comes from the area between Knoxville and Chatanooga, rather than Upper E. Tn., where I don't think that cheekpiece fits in too well.  Definitely it is not a Soddy-Daisy rifle nor a Selvidge, just thinking it might be from that area.  Just musing, it could still turn out to be from W. NC, SW Va., or SE KY, to name a few possibilities :).
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2011, 06:27:29 PM »
Interesting rifle. I agree with the western NC/Eastern TN.

One thing that I noticed is the placement of the forward cross pin. My Mathew Gillespie is located way out near the end of the forearm, 1/4 inch behind the short (3/4") iron nose cap. I figured mine had the barrel re-crowned and set back a little but when I pulled the barrel there is no evidence it has been tampered with. Since then I have seen 2 others (from same area) with similar placement. Wonder if its an area trait. Mine was made on the eastern side of the Blue Ridge across the mountain from Waynesville NC.

Never saw a jag made like that. Do you think its original?

Dennis
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Offline Howard

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2011, 03:07:25 AM »
Jag looks real to me as I have several in that configuration. The end of the worm is broke off. Just a good honest old gun.
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Offline jdm

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2011, 03:35:53 AM »
  Nice rifle. It has pleasing lines. Bring it up to the Feb. show.  JIM
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JIM

timM

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2011, 08:42:53 AM »
Gibster,

I agree, nice rifle in my opinion!  I am guessing E Tennessee.  I also very much  love these rifles.  Thank you for posting it.  Wished she lived at my house.  tim
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Offline gibster

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2011, 04:25:40 AM »
I sent some pictures of the rifle to Jerry Noble, who forwarded them to another collector friend that knows southern rifles.  His friend told him that he is certain that this rifle was made by Samuel Keller in Blount County Tennessee.  He said that he has a rifle made by Keller and there was no doubt in his mind that Keller made this one.  Jerry has Keller listed in Vol. 1 of his books as being born in Virginia in 1815.  In Blount County in 1850 and 1860.  Sometimes used oval patchboxes and forestock molding.  Occasionally used brass boxes.  "SK" when signed.
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AeroE

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2011, 05:16:11 AM »
Wouldn't it be great to see both rifles in this thread?!

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docone

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2011, 05:38:49 AM »
Is there a chance, that rifle was originally converted from Flint to percussion?
It looks like there was a different lock on it.
None the less. A piece of history. Made by a craftsman.
Good find.
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Offline gibster

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2011, 07:10:03 AM »
I don't think that the rifle was ever flint.  I think that the lock was replaced during period of use, but was always percussion. 
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Offline gibster

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2011, 07:51:18 PM »
Check out the pictures of the Samuel Keller (signed SK) rifle that were posted under Help ID this rifle.  Although mine is not signed, I have no doubt they were made by the same hand.
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Offline bgf

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2011, 09:17:43 PM »
Almost definitely by the same hand as the "SK" in the other thread; whether that is Keller or not, I don't know enough to guess -- if the expert thinks so, that's good.  The lock looks correct to me for that period and area (must have been a distributor in Knoxville) -- despite obvious wood damage at the rear, it otherwise fits well in the mortise, but I may be missing something.  I think you have a really pretty rifle that significantly enlarges the perspective we need to have on "East Tennessee" rifles. 
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Offline WElliott

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2011, 06:38:57 AM »
A very nice rifle.  The tang and the cheekpiece differ from the signed Samuel Keller ("S.K.") rifle I once owned, so I could not make that attribution with great assurance. However, I never assume that Southern gunsmiths always make all their rifles identically, for I know that is not true.
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Offline tom patton

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2011, 07:33:19 AM »
Quote from: WElliott on November 27, 2011, 06:38:57 AM
A very nice rifle.  The tang and the cheekpiece differ from the signed Samuel Keller ("S.K.") rifle I once owned, so I could not make that attribution with great assurance. However, I never assume that Southern gunsmiths always make all their rifles identically, for I know that is not true.

Sorry to be so late with this post but anyway here goes. Samuel Keller b. Ca. 1815 d. July 1883 in Blount County,Tennessee  was the father of Wm. H Kellar who signed one of my two Kellar{Keller} rifles.Both of these guns are,I believe by William Kellar{Keller} The earlier of the two was probably built in the last quarter of the 19th century.It is signed W H Kellar and profusely engraved from one end to the other including the cap box which is identical to the two Kellers on this forum.The other according to legend was unfinished when he died in the early 20th century{?} in Blount County,Tennessee. It was unsigned and supposedly it was taken to Sevierville,Tennessee and finished {finish and sights} by one of the Gibsons probably Wiley.William was known to have made several small guns either for boys or as buggy guns.I know of my two and two other small guns which fall into this category.I have seen one really nice Samuel Keller mounted in brass with a large box and and a really nice bag and horn.

The William Kellar guns I have seen are rather plain guns with an occasional cap box like the ones shown here and mine with the engraving. My engraved rifle is by far the best Kellar{Keller} rifle that I have seen.I would date the two shown here as post Civil War.Also some of these Kellar{Keller} rifles have  fairly heavy lower forestock molding from the rear entry pipe foward. I believe this feature was borrowed from the two Bogle rifles since it is almost never seen on other Tennessee rifles.Incidentally I know of a very nice full stock rifle signed "A B with that same molding.It belonged to a client and his daughter has it now.I guess I ought to  make her an offer.
Cheers
Tom Patton


 
   
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2013, 06:47:39 AM »
Quote from: tom patton on December 09, 2011, 07:33:19 AM
Quote from: WElliott on November 27, 2011, 06:38:57 AM
A very nice rifle.  The tang and the cheekpiece differ from the signed Samuel Keller ("S.K.") rifle I once owned, so I could not make that attribution with great assurance. However, I never assume that Southern gunsmiths always make all their rifles identically, for I know that is not true.

Sorry to be so late with this post but anyway here goes. Samuel Keller b. Ca. 1815 d. July 1883 in Blount County,Tennessee  was the father of Wm. H Kellar who signed one of my two Kellar{Keller} rifles.Both of these guns are,I believe by William Kellar{Keller} The earlier of the two was probably built in the last quarter of the 19th century....

 identical to the two Kellers on this forum.

...
The William Kellar guns I have seen are rather plain guns with an occasional cap box like the ones shown ...

Anybody know where these other Kellars are?  I took photos of a "W.H.KELLAR" just the other day.
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Offline rsells

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2013, 07:31:21 AM »
I just recieved (last Friday) a couple rubbings of a patchbox used on a Samuel Keller rifle that a friend of mine ownes.  He also sent me a close up photo of a butt plate and patch box area of the rifle, and it is exactly like the one you have posted.  I do not know a lot about the maker, but I will ask about the maker when I talk to Randal the next time I see him.  The box configuration is a bit unusual for a TN rifle, but I thought it would look great on a rifle I will be building in a bit that is going to be a caplock. He had this rifle at the KRA show in Norris last April, and it is a caplock as well.
                                                     Roger
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 07:38:36 AM by rsells »
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Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 08:34:53 PM »
The Blount County Tennessee Kellers were "originally" from Lancaster Co Pennsylvania and of German Descent.

CENSUS- 1900 Blount Co TN - 8th CD - ED 19 - June 6
 83-72-72 KELLER, William, b Dec 1864, age 35, married 15 years, TN-VA-TN, gunsmith
 84 , Julia, wife, Aug 1866, 32, borne 6, 6 living, TN-VA-TN
 85 , Margaret E., dau, Sept 1886, 13, TN
 86 , Lawson F., son, Dec 1887, 12, TN
 87 , Beulah A., dau, Sept 1891, 8, TN
 88 , Lillian M., dau, Apr 1893, 7, TN
 89 , Phebe V., dau, Feb 1896, 4, TN
 90 , James M., son, Dec 1898, 1, TN
 
William's parents are Samuel & Elizabeth Keller
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