new pistol, anyone got any info?

[plastikosmd]

figured I would put this here as it is not a long rifle but wanted to ask it in collecting. All my searches get overwhelmed with 'brown bess.'  This seems to be a howdah type pistol, 66 caliber. Brown marked on the lock, london in similar script on the barrel. No proof marks that I can see. I havent taken the barrels out yet to check.  Looks like a fun gun. Not sure I would want to see it at the other end of the card table

[tallbear]

It's ok here so i moved it for you.

Mitch

[plastikosmd]

thx, never want to step on toes so I start over the back first as not to offend

[T*O*F]

No proof marks that I can see

Did you take the barrels off and look underneath?
That's where the proofs and the gauge are located on British guns.

[greybeard]

Yep You just gotta love those Brit mads guns.  Bob

[plastikosmd]

 :-\Thank u. No, I wasn't clear, I haven't taken the barrels off the stock yet. Good to know the marks marks will be there. Will take a pic for u.  I imagine these were loaded for a ball rather than shot?  Any guesses on date range for this piece? any knowledge of maker?  I assume London is reference to a place and not a name of an individual?

[Tim Crosby]

 Can you post full left/right pics?

  Thanks, Tim C.

[plastikosmd]

let me see this is what else i got, did you want to see the lock on the left?

[plastikosmd]

proof marks
any clues?

[kentucky bucky]

I don't know what it is, but I know it's ultra cool and I want one!!!

[Mike Brooks]

Made 1810 give or take 5 or 10 years. British proofs, but Feltwad will have to tell you exactly which ones.

[smart dog]

Hi,
I think those are private Tower proof marks, which would be stamped twice on each barrel.  There were a number of Browns working in London during the late 18th and early 19th century, when your gun was probably made.  Listed in Blackmore's book on London gunmakers there was John Brown (1780-1808), Henry Brown (1768-1801), Gabriel (1806), and Abraham (early 1800s).  Your gun is very well made and in great shape.

dave

[plastikosmd]

wow thanks guys!

[James Rogers]

Dave,
I swear I can see
" BPC" on those marks.

James

[smart dog]

Hi James,
You may be correct.  I have not seen enough private tower marks to tell them definitively from Birmingham proofs.  In fact, I really didn't pay much attention to the private tower marks until Joe Puleo described how they were misidentified as Ketland proofs.  Certainly, there are many Birmingham made barrels marked "London".  Regardless, the barrels are British and there were several London makers named Brown.   

dave

[JV Puleo]

Those are post-1813 B'ham proofs... about what I would expect. By this time almost all barrels... and the majority of the guns were being made there regardless of the name on them or "London" on the barrel. There were a large number of people named Brown in the B'ham trade so without initials its nearly impossible to figure out which marked the lock.... Also, B'ham makers almost never put "Birmingham" on their guns. "London" carried much more advertising value so thats what they usually put even though everyone in the trade knew where the guns came from.

[smart dog]

Hi Joe,
Has anyone published a comprehensive list of Birmingham makers similar to Blackmore's book on London makers?  I have a partial list that only covers the last half of the 18th century (gifted to me by the kind folks at Ken Trotman books).  I need to get a good series of references.

dave

[JV Puleo]

Yes... easily the best job ever done on them and the equal of Howard Blackmore's work on the London makers. The title is confusing though... "English Gunmakers" The subtitle is "The Birmingham & Provincial Gun Trade in the 18th and 19th Century." By DeWitt Bailey and Douglas Nie.

Its long out of print. A quick check of bookfinder.com shows lots of copies available... priced from about $50.00 to $150.00. If this is an interest of yours, its well worth the price. About 80% of the answers I come up with come from this book... It was $20.00 new in 1978. The quality that distinguishes this book and Blackmore's (the only two guides to British gunmakers that I think are at all reliable) is that the authors worked entirely from documentary evidence. There is no guessing the dates based on what a gun looks like... an extremely unreliable way of doing things but something thats been going on for many years.

The shortcoming is that if the maker wasn't listed in a directory he isn't there... if he was only listed for a few years only those dates show up but this is far more useful than just guessing and gives hard evidence to begin a search with.

[James Rogers]

Ditto Joe's last post. I picked up the Bailey book off eBay for about 30 last year at Joe's recommendation. It also covers some makers from other provinces. That and the Bailey's duo are certainly must haves.

[smart dog]

Thanks Joe and James,
I will order a copy immediately.  I am fascinated by some of the provincial British makers, many of whom like Edward Newton, Edward Coombs, and Nicholas Paris (Sr and Jr) produced work every bit the equal of the best makers in London and they prospered without the advantage of the lucrative contracts with the military, East India, and Hudson's Bay companies.  I want to learn more while I try to emulate their work.

Thanks,

dave

[Feltwad]

Do not rely too much on books because most of these are taken from Post Office directory's which can have a 10 to 20 year period between publication, personal research is more precise.Has for provincial gun makers  there were some that turned out work just has good has the top London or Birmingham gun makers , this also applies to patents .
Feltwad

[greybeard]

Do not rely too much on books because most of these are taken from Post Office directory's which can have a 10 to 20 year period between publication, personal research is more precise.Has for provincial gun makers  there were some that turned out work just has good has the top London or Birmingham gun makers , this also applies to patents .
Feltwad

I agree :  As in Westley Richards!!