Belgian rifle

[Pohill]

I bought a gun recently that I'm trying to ID.  It's Belgian made, 3 band, approx. .58 caliber now, but from what I've read, it might have started as a .54 and was bored out to what it is now.  I'm not even sure that it has any rifling left in the barrel, but there are circular marks inside.  Any info would be appreciated.


Proofmarks on bottom of barrel:


rifling?

[TPH]

Very nice. It appears to be a Belgian Infanteriegeweer M1841/53. This is a modification of the Belgian M1841
to the M1853 pattern. Here is a M1853 for comparison:

http://www.geocities.com/belgianarmypre1914/index.html

Hope this helps. More information on the Belgian Army and it's weapons is at:

http://www.geocities.com/belgianarmypre1914/index.html

Click on ALGEMENE INHOUD to get you to the section on weapons.

It appears that yours has been reamed out to smooth bore, there is no rifling visible.

[Pohill]

Great info and links.  Thanks.
I might have the barrel relined to .54 or .58.   I contacted  Mr Hoyt at the Freischutz Shop in PA, and he said he can reline it in basically any caliber I want at a very reasonable price. It's in great shape.

[TPH]

He does great work. Personally, I would go with .58 but go with anything that he suggests. Choose a mould that you will want to use,  cast a few and get an average size and have him line the barrel to an appropriate size for that Minié and you are good to go. It does seem to be in excellent shape, congratulations on your acquisition, that model is not easy to find.

[Pohill]

I've heard good things about Hoyt.  I did forget to mention to him that this barrel does not have a breech plug - I'll call him back to see if that changes anything.  Is that common (no breech plug)?
.58 does sound good.  I have some .490 moulds but he said that the gun would be heavy with that caliber barrel.

[TPH]

No plug? Hmmm, that's odd. Not a common thing but as long as the threads are there he should be able to turn one up and index it properly. You will, of course have to do the final cutting to length and shaping of the tang and fitting to the stock but that is not a serious problem as long as you have done it before. Do you have detailed pictures of the breech as it is now?

[Pohill]

This is the breech.  I called Hoyt and he said he'd have to drill right through and add a plug but it shouldn't change anything other than the looks of the breech.  But, looking at it, I wonder if that's possible?

[TPH]

Ah, if you look closely a short distance in front of the bolster, I'll bet that there is a seam - this is because your plug is actually the breech of the gun, forged as a unit. The French did this on their early Percussion muskets (the M1840) and decided the breeches were too expensive to forge. Modern repop CW guns often do this but the breeches are cast. Hoyt should be able to get the breech off without too much problem. But be aware that some Belgian guns have reverse threading..... (Righty loosy, lefty tighty.) That may not be the case here, just something to watch out for.

[Pohill]

I cleaned the breech a little better and took these pics.  I just don't see how anything would unscrew from the breech.  Or am I looking at the wrong section? 

[JV Puleo]

The seam is about half an inch in front of the bolster (i.e. the block the nipple is screwed into).
The whole last two inches or so of the barrel comes off. This is a much stronger breech than the conventional breechplug. In the United States, when the M1816/1822 rifles were altered to use .69 caliber conical bullets, it was found necessary to cut the breeches off the barrel and make a complete new breech because the pressures generated by the heavier bullets were marginally unsafe with the old-style plug. Take a look at a Remington-Maynard conversion...it has that type of breech added to a M1816/22 musket.
It has to come apart...there was no other way to make the barrel.

[Pohill]

Interesting.  I'll be looking for the seam in my sleep.  This gun is my latest obsession (should have seen me when I got a Savage & North .36 Navy).
I'm actually on my way over to a friend's house with this gun - he has an original Springfield and he wants to see this Belgian.
Based on the pics of the rifling (or cut marks) and barrel, and assuming the barrel is still strong, what could be fired out of this gun?  A roundball or buckshot?  Not that I want to make it a shooter, but I like to fire my originals at least once.  If I have the barrel relined, it will be a shooter for sure.

[TPH]

JV Puleo is correct with his excellent explanation. As I said in the earlier post, the seam is just in front of the bolster, sorry for any confusion I may have caused, I should have explained what the bolster is. The seam is visible in an enlargement of the bottom photo in your second set of photos.  Since there is no rifling in the bore at present, a round ball or shot should work fine. Enjoy.

[Pohill]

Thanks again for all the info.  I have to decide whether to reline the barrel or not.  I'd be happy shooting roundballs and hitting something at 50 feet.

[Pohill]

New question, old gun...
The cut in the bottom of the bolster (correct term?) looks crude, as if it was cut after the gun was made.  Does this mean anything (a conversion of some sort, or an adaptation from something else?)
When the breech plug was added to the last two inches of the barrel, would they have smoothed over the connection to hide it?

[TPH]

No, looks perfectly correct and safe. Happy Thanksgiving. 

[Pohill]

I measured the bore the best that I could and came up with .5625.  Considering that there is no rifling in the barrel, what size patched roundball would I use in this gun?  What would be a decent powder charge?
Thanks.