Unknown rifle, Please help

[MaxSlade]

Hello Gentlemen.  I am new to this forum and I have just been given a rifle and I was hoping you guys could shed some light on it for me.  I typically deal with WW2 milsurp rifles so please speak to me like I know absolutely nothing on the subject.  (which is isn't too far from the truth)  All I know about the rifle is this:  it was purchased at an estate auction in the northern Shenandoah Valley, it was converted from flintlock to percussion, the lock appears to be a preRevolution trade lock, possibly a Blair. 

Many thanks. 

Slade

http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/maximusslade/Rifles/Kentucky%20Rifle/#!cpZZ1QQtppZZ28

[flintriflesmith]

Although the angle of some of your pictures and the lack of some key shots, like the close up of just the lock, make it difficult to even guess about the rifle I'll stick my neck out anyway! Too full of turkey to resist.

Looks like the lock and quite posibly the barrel are from a rifle made about 1775-90. The barrel appears to have been shortened at the breech by some 4-5 inches --- after it was put in this stock.

The trigger guard and maybe the butt pice have the look of some Rockingham Co. Virginia rifles. If you look up the pictures of a McGilvery rifle you may see a similar guard ca. 1825-40.

The stock looks even later. Possibly 1850-80.

In the longrifle collecting field this would probably be called a "composite rifle" meaning one stcked up from a assortment of parts from different rifles.

To try and determine if the barrel is as early as the lock you should measure the outside at the breech and at every 10-12 inches to the muzzle. An early barrel will taper to a point about 4-6 inches back of the muzzle then flare slightly so the muzzle is bigger than the smallest point.

Many Blair locks were signed on the inside.
Gary

[JCKelly]

Do not most all gunmakers make "composite" rifles, i.e. guns from assorted store-bought parts?

The following has already been said, here is maybe some more explanation.

The amount the barrel has been shortened is shown by how much the rear sight had been moved foreward. Whether shortened before or after being in this stock might be shown by various unused barrel pin holes in the stock, I can't tell myself. That the barrel was shortened from the breech, which is not uncommon, is shown by the punched decoration on the muzzle plus the fact that one groove aligns nicely with the top flat. That is, this is probably the original muzzle.

Whoever made the rifle, he used a very old lock, by its style, which lock is a much older style than that stock architecture. Likewise the large caliber of the barrel would be unusual for a rifle as late as that stock style.

[woodsrunner]

I can't agree with you that the rear sight moved foward is proof that the barrel was shortened from the breech. This was and is a fairly common practice with longrifles as the owner/user ages and his eyesight weakens. All of my conventional longrifles have had another dovetail cut and the rear sight moved foward 'till the sights became crisp for me.

Something looks amiss to me at the breech. at first I thought that it might be a hooked breech, but I doubt it now.

In my opinion this piece is a Southern Rifle, and I don't think there could be any question about that. My opinion is that it is east Tennessee, east of Soddy, maybe southwest Virginia or western North Carolina, but that is a gut feeling based on the characteristics that I hope others more knowing also see.

The owner posted the photos of the rifle here on our Site at my suggestion since most of our members are more knowledgable about Southern Mountain pieces than I. Please.....jump in and express an opinion with the reasons why.

[JTR]

I don't have a clue as to where the gun was made. Nor do I see anything that would suggest it being an originally Southern made gun.

I tend to agree with it being a 1850ish assemblage of parts. Assembling parts from older rifles certainly wasn't unusual, and I'm sure there were thousands made into generic inexpensive rifles near the end of the percussion era.

As for the barrel being cut back at the breech, the evidence on the gun indicates that it was, in a fairly straight forward way. As is, the current location of the rear sight is the correct location for a longrifle. If, the dovetail cut back towards the breech end was the original sight location, with the current length of the barrel, the sight would have been in an unconventional location. This is certainly not impossible, but, if you take into consideration that it looks like there is only two ramrod thimbles, and there is no forward ramrod thimble near the muzzle, plus the treatment of the muzzle cap/incised line termination on the forearm, tells me that the barrel was cut back at the breech, and that the stock was trimmed back an equal amount at the muzzle end.
Taking the barrel out of the stock would answer this question conclusively, but it actually doesn't make that much difference in the long run.
There's nothing wrong with it as it is, and was no doubt used as is. Value wise, sort of like a military rifle put together from parts from various time periods.
Have you looked back near the breech for a signature engraved on the top barrel flat?
John

[Randy1944]

Slade,  I wanted to chim in with my two cents worth.  All of my original old mtn. guns have iron hardware.  The upper tang as well as rear of trigger guard and heel plate all are much longer than outside guns.  It is a distinct feature on my guns.   One of my guns has a iron patchbox and the others have no box.  One has a hole in the stock to hold grease.  Your rifle seems to be a nice piece but it doesn't  have the features of my mtn. guns.  Just my contribution.      Randy