Micro grove rifling

[David Veith]

I know of two Belgin dueling pistals that has micro grove rifling in them. Looking for some inforamtion on it. They have about 25 groves in a 13 mm barrel.
David Veith

[Stophel]

I have photos of some German rifles with lots of tiny little narrow (and deep) grooves.  I figure that there's no way they could effectively hold a patch.  They did all kinds of wierd things.  Just because they could.

[Dphariss]

Many English dueling pistols, well some is better estimate I guess, had "scratch" rifling. Very shallow almost undetectable.

Dan

[Daryl]

As well, you'll see square(4 sided), 5 and 6 (hexigonal) rifling that also has narrow grooves cut in the corners.

[doug]

I know of two Belgin dueling pistals that has micro grove rifling in them. Looking for some inforamtion on it. They have about 25 groves in a 13 mm barrel.
David Veith

     I have seen several originals made that way as well as one brand of replicas.  I think it was just one of those ideas that seemed good at the time.  The guns that I have seen have all been percussion

cheers Doug

[Carper]

About the tenth barrel that I rifled on an old index the cutting head pulled loose from the rod. The cutter was embeded in a hickory shiv that split into at the cutter and a new one had to be made. I was about a quarter done so not too deep with the grooves at all. I put the new cutter into the barrel at what I judged was about the midway between two partial grooves and cut the barrel as from scratch.  When you looked down the bore you not only saw the seven finished grooves but the seven just barely and not quite perfectly spaced apart ! MicroGroove!!!  It shot just the same as the barrel before it and the one after it. It just looked bad.   Johnny

[Mike R]

I know of two Belgin dueling pistals that has micro grove rifling in them. Looking for some inforamtion on it. They have about 25 groves in a 13 mm barrel.
David Veith

     I have seen several originals made that way as well as one brand of replicas.  I think it was just one of those ideas that seemed good at the time.  The guns that I have seen have all been percussion

cheers Doug

Somewhere [maybe in Brown's book on colonial firearms] I have seen a drawing of "mircrogroove" rifling that if I remember right was French and early flintlock period.  Maybe faulty memory--I'll look for it.  Many close-spaced sharp ridges and grooves.  Unlike the microgroove rifling modern Marlin .22s have.

[don getz]

Son John has made several barrel similar to this.  He got the idea from an english rifle that Dick Chubb had in the booth
at Friendship.  He made a 60 cal. barrel, cut his standard seven round grooves, but only about .010 deep, he then re-
indexed the cutter head and cut another set of grooves the same depth on each land.  This left about a .020 wide land
between each of 14 round grooves.   It looks great and I must, at some future time, build a gun with a barrel like this.
It would have to load easy and should be easy to clean, would probably wipe clean every time you loaded it.     Don

[Daryl]

Don - don't all bores wipe clean every time you load them? All mine and Taylor's do and we're but 2 of the group up here who have the same experience.
Ven you load der next von, der bore getz viped.  That way, there is only one shot's fouling in the bore at any time - it never builds up.

 Don - I am very much interested in the bore design you taked about.  With rifling cut round bottomed as you indicated, .020" wide lands, but only about .005" deep and an 80" twist in 16 bore - perfect!  I would be quite interested in just such a barrel.  At .005" deep, there's be room for another groove maybe. This would keep the lands very narrow, almost knife edged, which would also shoot well with paper ctgs. for hunting in cold climates.
 My buddies .75 round bottomed rifling, with deep grooves will only allow 3 shots with ctgs. before it needs to be wiped. With patched balls, the rifling is so deep, it's a fouling with stiff loads.  On the other hand, my .69, with .012" rifling allowed 10 shots - all accurate.  The multi-groove principal you noted might/would allow even more and allow use of hard (WW) balls with heavy charges.  Slow rifling with many shallow gooves, less distrotion of the ball required, easy loading- plusses all the way around.
  Way back when, multi-grooving certainly was a good idea.

[Dphariss]

Don - don't all bores wipe clean every time you load them? All mine and Taylor's do and we're but 2 of the group up here who have the same experience.
Ven you load der next von, der bore getz viped.  That way, there is only one shot's fouling in the bore at any time - it never builds up.

 Don - I am very much interested in the bore design you taked about.  With rifling cut round bottomed as you indicated, .020" wide lands, but only about .005" deep and an 80" twist in 16 bore - perfect!  I would be quite interested in just such a barrel.  At .005" deep, there's be room for another groove maybe. This would keep the lands very narrow, almost knife edged, which would also shoot well with paper ctgs. for hunting in cold climates.
 My buddies .75 round bottomed rifling, with deep grooves will only allow 3 shots with ctgs. before it needs to be wiped. With patched balls, the rifling is so deep, it's a fouling with stiff loads.  On the other hand, my .69, with .012" rifling allowed 10 shots - all accurate.  The multi-groove principal you noted might/would allow even more and allow use of hard (WW) balls with heavy charges.  Slow rifling with many shallow gooves, less distrotion of the ball required, easy loading- plusses all the way around.
  Way back when, multi-grooving certainly was a good idea.

If you use water based patch lube it will wipe pretty clean. If you use an oil like Sperm whale or Neatsfoot it may not unless you live in a very damp climate or you blow down the barrel between shots.
My .008" deep rifled 16  bore shoots pretty clean with oiled patches in fact one shot hardly shows any fouling at the muzzle. Longer barrels will have more fouling in them for the patch lube to soften.

Dan

[David Veith]

Theys to are percussion.
David Veith

[don getz]

Daryl......then you are telling me you don't have any barrels with normal, square type grooves.  If you think they wipe clean every time you re-load, I don't believe you.  You are telling me that you can go out and shoot all day without cleaning, and when you clean you will be cleaning the mess left from just one shot........bull.   I am no one of the "newbies" on this site.  Unless there is someting unique to the air up where you guy live, it is affecting more than the crud left from your shooting............Don

[rich pierce]

I've got one of those micro-groove barrels.  SWEET.  Can't wait to get it built up and see how it loads and shoots.  I expect a pretty tight-fitting ball will be best.

[doug]

  If you think they wipe clean every time you re-load, I don't believe you.  You are telling me that you can go out and shoot all day without cleaning, and when you clean you will be cleaning the mess left from just one shot........bull.   

      I will partially side with Daryl on this one but with the qualification that I lube my patches with moose milk ie a home made mixture of water soluble cutting oil and water and I try to keep my patches fairly wet.  My patches are .019" thick and I can and often shoot 30 shots or more without cleaning other than what is wiped down by each patched ball.  We shoot mostly woods trails around here and more or less do not have the option of cleaning between shots, with a separate rod and patch.  My experience with the various "greasy" patch lubes is that by 10 shots my barrel is getting quite sticky and difficult to load.  I clean after shooting with warm water and a bronze brush and do not seem to get a great pile of sludge at the bottom of the barrel and also seem to have much much less residual fouling that when cleaning after shooting with a greasy lube.

cheers Doug

[Dphariss]

  If you think they wipe clean every time you re-load, I don't believe you.  You are telling me that you can go out and shoot all day without cleaning, and when you clean you will be cleaning the mess left from just one shot........bull.   

      I will partially side with Daryl on this one but with the qualification that I lube my patches with moose milk ie a home made mixture of water soluble cutting oil and water and I try to keep my patches fairly wet.  My patches are .019" thick and I can and often shoot 30 shots or more without cleaning other than what is wiped down by each patched ball.  We shoot mostly woods trails around here and more or less do not have the option of cleaning between shots, with a separate rod and patch.  My experience with the various "greasy" patch lubes is that by 10 shots my barrel is getting quite sticky and difficult to load.  I clean after shooting with warm water and a bronze brush and do not seem to get a great pile of sludge at the bottom of the barrel and also seem to have much much less residual fouling that when cleaning after shooting with a greasy lube.

cheers Doug

Water based "lubes" will cut the fouling but they cannot do much about the build up in the powder bed.
This is what worries me.
It is entirely possible that the fouling pushed down to the powder with a wet patch can be shot out.
But I don't trust a lot of fouling below this point. People HAVE been injured seriously while loading guns that have heavy fouling in the breech from shooting and shooting without stopping to wipe the barrel all the way to the breech now and then.

When shooting BP I EXPECT to have to wipe the barrel now and then. Its part of the program.
Back in the 70s there were reports of barrels pitted by using water and water soluble oil as patch lube.
I gave up on water based lubes quite some time ago. As was once asked in Muzzle Blasts "would you use spit to lubricate your car engine?"

Dan

[Evil Monkey]

"would you use spit to lubricate your car engine?"

Dan

Nope. Nor would I use bear grease, bees wax, crisco, bore butter, lehigh valley lube, whle oil or any other patch lube to lubricate my car engine. But then again, I understand that car engines and ML barrels are different. That's also why I don't try to run my car on black powder or shoot my rifle with gasoline.

[don getz]

Dan....it was always my understanding that water was the best "solvent" or cleaner for black powder residue, and I
have always used it, at least a water based solvent.  You can clean your barrel with just water, warm or hot, but you
but you must then dry the bore, maybe use some WD40 to displace excess water in the bore, then dry again and oil it,
that should keep it from rusting.  I would not use spit or water as a patch lube to hunt with, mainly because it would
probably dry out, and if left in the bore long enough, would probably start to rust where the ball and patch are located.
Actually, when I go hunting, I use Ox-Yoke wonder patches.  They have always worked well for me, give me adequate
accuracy, remain soft and pliable in cold weather, and I have found that I can shoot often without cleaning, not that it
has ever been necessary. If I went hunting today and got three shots at deer and didn't have one, I would go home....
Don

[PGosnell]

One thing that needs to be remembered is that blackpowder fouling is predominately comprised of water soluble salts (potassium carbonate and potassium sulfate).  Both of these salts are readily soluble in water but are insoluble in organic solvents including ethanol.  For that reason, water has worked well across the years for cleaning a barrel.  After cleaning you do need to remove the water and that is where your lubes and oils are needed.

Another fact that must be considered is chlorine, which as we all know is in most of our tap water sources.  Introducing chlorine or rather re-introducing chlorine to the potassium sulfate while in solution can allow the salt to shift back into its starting materials, potassium chloride and sulfuric acid.  With that it mind, us city folk not blessed with good clean well water best use lots of water in the cleaning process to dilute any acids that might form and quickly dry after cleaning.

[Daryl]

Hi Don - I sent you an e-mail - a nice one regarding our BS post.  I'll also mention the gist of it here.  As Doug noted, we shoot pretty much continually- sometimes 5 min. or so between shots, but we don't have to wipe the bores.  I hear you Dan, regarding a buildup in the breech that could possibly hold embers, or whatever.  I may even start to wipe, maybe every 20 to 30 shots or something just for peace of mine.  I find wiping the bore a pain - needless except for the safety deal you mention.

Back to Don's coments - he's RIGHT!!!!!  Technically speaking, the bore is not wiped to lab-spotlessnessly clean each time it's loaded. It is wiped clean enough that whatever is left between loadings, never builds up in the bore as loading never changes - from the first (inclusive) to the last shot of the day or sometimes I've gone 2 or 3 days with only a wipe (the rifle's barrel) between days.

I've only ever had square bottomed rifling. I did test a hand-rifled round bottomed groove rifle barrel once, a .50 barrel with .024" deep rifling - couldn't get it to shoot accurately enough to satisfy myself.  In those days I benched at 100 yards, rarely shot at 50 yards or closer to test rifles and work up loads.  For this reason, I found rondy's exceptionally easy due to the very close ranges they shoot. Today, I can't see to shoot well at the longer ranges - hmmm.

Track's mink oil for hunting then - LHV or spit for rondy's. Clean with cold water, dry and oil with WD40 applied heavily, then pump/push/wipe the excess out the vent until there's only a thin coating on the insides. Works for me.