Priming Powder

[frogwalking]

My priming horn was empty last weekend when my son and I went out to shoot.  I heard someone mention that the old timers did not use a finer grain powder to prime, so we just used 3f, and I even used 2f with my big Chambers English lock.  He was using a rifle with a small Chambers lock, I don't remember which one.  We shot for 2 days without a priming failure to light.  So why do we usually go to the effort to use 4 fg for prime?

[bob in the woods]

4F is measurably faster, even though 2F works

[blunderbuss]

I thought I read in" Historical arms making " that they did extensive testing in both original and modern locks and basically it wasn't that much faster. It must be in volume 4 cause that's the one I can't find ,(You know how that works)

[Larry Pletcher]

The various granule sizes do give different ignition speeds.  In the 2005 MuzzleBlasts I did an article that reported ignition times for Goex 2fg, 3fg, two varities of 4fg, Swiss NullB, and Swiss 4fg.  In general, the finest granule size gave the fastest speeds.  Since then I timed a few other granule sizes including Goex 1fg and cannon grade.  Below is a chart that may help to show how these relate to each other.



In short, the grain size does make a difference.  HOWEVER, the differences are so small that in most cases human senses can't tell the difference.  One thing I found was that the fastest 2fg trial was slower than the slowest Swiss Null B trial.  However all black powder sizes were better than the sub I tested - even Goex cannon.

The complete article is found at the link below:
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/priming-powder-timing.php

Regards,
Pletch

[volatpluvia]

Pletch,
My nerves are pretty sensitive.  I have always been able to tell the difference between three f and 4f.  Never tried 2f.
volatpluvia

[Candle Snuffer]

I too can tell the difference of 4f, 3f, and 2f, as a prime, though if we hold through with our shot there's
not much accuracy lost.  At least this is what I've found through some field testing some years back.

[roundball]

I ran 10-15 alternate shots at the range one day with 4F / 3F / 4F / 3F, etc...and could definitely tell a difference.

But to be honest, even if I couldn't have...knowing that finer granulations burn faster would be enough for me to use 4F anyway...add up all the little increments of faster locks, sharper flints, faster prime, large fast vents, fast 3F main, etc, and that results in faster ignition / faster muzzle exit / best possible accuracy...

[Dphariss]

My priming horn was empty last weekend when my son and I went out to shoot.  I heard someone mention that the old timers did not use a finer grain powder to prime, so we just used 3f, and I even used 2f with my big Chambers English lock.  He was using a rifle with a small Chambers lock, I don't remember which one.  We shot for 2 days without a priming failure to light.  So why do we usually go to the effort to use 4 fg for prime?

For one thing its easier to trickle through a vent. It will light easier, it's faster since it lights easier and the heat rise is faster and seems to make a smaller, thinner fouling pattern on the gun and pan.
We have no real idea what was used for priming in the past. All we know is there are some surviving priming horns. Chances are they used what ever was used as a propellant.  But rifles used finer powder than muskets and fowling pieces it seems."FF" but what this meant in Colonial times I could not say with any authority.
And.
But just like today there were gun owners, shooters and riflemen (my distinctions). The riflemen are historically more finicky than the shooters and far more so than the gun owner type who at the time had gun only for militia and/or as a social statement.
I find FFs slower light to be a distraction compared to FFFF or Swiss Null B.

Dan

[Candle Snuffer]

Correct me if I'm wrong.  I believe I once read (or heard) that early powder such as back during the colonial times and most likely through the Civil War,,, it was not coated like our powder today is - such as we get from Goex.  If this is (or was) the case, I could see early powder such as rifle or even musket powder giving good results as a prime.  I'm no expert on this by any means, but it just hits me as non coated black powder should be faster.  I can't tell because the grains are so small, but it doesn't appear that the Goex 4fg is coated like the 3f, 2f, and 1f.  Just an observation.

[Daryl]

For me, the gun is always moving - I cannot hold the sights perfectly steady - I don't think anyone can or their targets would be as accurate offhand as off a bench or rest.  

It makes sense that the less the gun moves from the time the sear is tripped until the ball is on it's way out the barrel, the better and more consistant the accuracy will be.

It not only makes sense with our muzzleloaders, it also happens with modern match and competition rifles. 'Some' action types are known to have slower ignition than others - most people are or would be dang hard pressesdto tell the difference, but an offhand modern rifle compeition shooter can - it's obvious to them and they are all shooting the same amunition with the same ignition system- primers/powder/bullets - only the "locks", the ignition types are different. (this sounds like another test to me, Pletch)  

Discerning the the differences between 4F, 3F and 2F is easier than discerning the difference in ignition times between different, modern actions, yet competition offhand shooters can and do.  Now, imagine that shooter firing a flint lock rifle with 4F, 3F or 2F in the pan - it becomes more easily understood.

[Daryl]

CandleSnuffer - I don't think any of the powder is coated today. Coatings would slow ignition, that's for sure, but rolling, milling and pressing time is what makes the gains of powder hard, sharp and shiny.  The powder cakes are broken up, and seived. That which drops through the 4f seive is 4F, 3F, 2F, 1F and Cannon - it's all the same powder, today, I believe.

That's how I understand it, briefly. The harder the powder, the less breakdown and crumbling which causes dust. Dust which at least I took as being graphite, but learned it was not - right here on ALR.

 

[roundball]

What does the "g" stand for..."graphite" or "granulation".

If "graphite", then all Goex powders are coated with graphite...

Fg
FFg
FFFg
FFFFg
FFFFFg

[Larry Pletcher]

I need to address a couple of thoughts that you fellows have raised.  First, I don't believe the "g" in fg, ffg, fffg refer to graphite.  I simply thought it was part of the terminalogy.  If it does refer to graphite, I hope someone like Mr. Knight will clarify.

In dealing with timing priming powders, I'm sure you realize that the numbers I give are averages.  The variation from slow to fast is considerable.  This is why I question the ability of shooters to tell the difference between powders.  For instance in the sets of 20 Goex trials,  13 of the fffg trials fell within the 4fg range.  Conversly, 15 of the 4fg trials fell within the 3fg range.  That means that roughly 3/4 of the trials would be indistinguishable from either fffg or ffffg unless you watched me primg the pan.  Look at the complete chart of raw times on the web site and you can see what a tangle mix this is.

One aspect that may be misleading is that when you fire either powder in igniting a shot, the sound of the barrel is part of what your ear hears.  In my "lab" setting only the pan is ignited and timed and "heard".  I wish you could watch one of these sets and try to hear fast or slow trials.  It is virtually impossible. I understand the idea that a shot sounds fast or slow, but when judging the pan performance, it may be that the variation in amounts of sparks may be a larger variable that powder.  Do look at the complete chart and note the overlap between  granule sizes.  For this post I looked at the Goex fffg andf early Goex ffffg columns.  Please also note that if you include the Swiss, the ranges are farther apart.

Regards,
Pletch

[Daryl]

Since the tests were for the ignition of the pan only, I suggest in order to 'test' what we hear or feel, would be to time the actual ignition inside the barrel as we know there is more heat generated with 4F ignition than with 3, 2 or 1.

The amount of available heat will effect the actual ignition time of the barrel's charge, I submit.  Note in the time lapse videos, the quickness of the manifestation of the pan's contents. It does seem faster with 4F - to me.  This in turn should reduce the speed of the main charge - at least logic says it will.

[bgf]

I just always use 3F for both main charge and priming.  I figure if I'm in a huge slump, I can go to 4F to psyche myself out of it, and the extra follow-through gained with 3F training will really pay off .  

[roundball]

First, I don't believe the "g" in fg, ffg, fffg refer to graphite.

FWIW, I found this:

1825, Europe
DEVELOPMENT OF GRANULATIONS FOR SPECIFIC PURPOSES
With more accurate testing methods, it was discovered that different granulations of corned powder were appropriate to different applications. This ultimated in today's grading system using the letters "F" and "g". The little "g" stands for Granulation, while the F stands for the size of screen mesh the granule will pass through.
The smallest granulation commonly available is FFFFg (spoken: "4F"). It is used principally in the priming pan of flintlocks, but has some application in strong but small chambered revolvers of .22 to .32 caliber.

LINK:
http://footguards.tripod.com/06ARTICLES/ART28_blackpowder.htm

[Larry Pletcher]

Roundball,
thanks for your check on terms. I never took the time to do that and should have.

Daryl,
I did some barrel igniton tests but eliminated the lock to lessen variables. At the time I wanted to zero in on a particular item.  I was interested in vents at the time.

In slo motion video I used Null B to keep locks on an equal footing, again to lessen variables.  After we knew what a lock would do with Null B, we did some others for fun.  That included ffg, fg, and cannon. Even did a few up side down, but you probably saw them too. My favorite was the ball bearing Siler up side down with Goes cannon in the pan.

Wouldn't it be fun to throw all the assorted gear together with four or five of you guys and spend a few days seeing what we could learn. Hey, for $2000 we could rent that cam for a week.
Regards,
Pletch

Basically then, I did the trials you mention but didn't do the combinations  you talked about.

[Candle Snuffer]

Well, according to this site the "g" stands for "glazed" with graphite...  So, which is it?  Anyone know for sure?

http://www.vk2zay.net/composition/3

[roundball]

To be honest, I always thought the "g" stood for graphite...but looking at the Goex website, they don't define it and in fact, their MSDS sheet says "not all granulations have graphite".....yet all their powders have the little "g" tacked on after the F's.

 

[Candle Snuffer]

I'm not sure what to make of it RB?  I looked up graphite and its been around forever, and some of the black powder formula's floating around on the internet make no mention of using it, though with it being (as I understand it) a coal base, perhaps the graphiting occures in the charcoal?  Who would have thought that little "g" would lead to such confussion?

[Larry Pletcher]

I thought that glazing meant a polishing process where the shiny surface came from some of the pot. nitrate migrating to the surface.  I think that was Swiss BTW.
Regards,
Pletch

[Candle Snuffer]

Here is some more information on black powder and "graphite"

[ the granules of modern black powder are typically coated with graphite, which prevents the build-up of electrostatic charge]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

Still don't know for sure what the "g" stands for?

[greybeard]

THE GUN PICTURED IS ONE I MADE SOME 18 YRS OR SO AGO.
The lock is an L&R.  The first time I shot it I used 4F for priming and I felt that it was kinda slow.
I tried GOI 2F and was very impressed with the speed of ignition over the 4F.  It felt almost like my Sharon Hawken (perc). I have been using 2F for priming ever since.  Of course your experiences may be  different than mine b ut for me , if it works don't fix it!!!

[Daryl]

Meanwhile Ogre is sitting back, chuckling and perhaps laughing out louod over all we've forgotten, changed around or twisted from his most excellent explanations in the past on powders and their compostion.

Greybeard - I think perhaps your 4f must have been faulty.

[greybeard]

Daryl;  That is a posibility I guess. I think it was Meteor or I C I but I can't  remember for sure.
I just have such good luck with GOI that I will probably carry on as usual.
    I hope the weather Gods are good to you folks in the  north country this winter.
    I still haven't gotten out to give the Berks gun a good workout. 
        Cheers    Bob