What to do

[hanshi]

I hope this is the correct place for a dumb question. 

I have a 20 plus year old Traditions DeerHunter (cheapest model), 24" barrel, .50.  I would like to put on brass furniture and make it look nicer and more traditional/authentic.  Though it's a loner/backup/bad weather/knock around gun it is pretty much blemish free.

I cut off the rubber butt pad and shaved a bit of wood off the comb for a little more drop.  This slightly shortened the heel to toe distance as I knew it would.  The butt is pretty flat and not curved as I would prefer.

Question (dumb): What is the best direction to take with this project?  I don't know if it's possible to get what I want with the steps I've taken.  Cost is a factor so a suitable pre-carved stock would have to be plain but inlet for barrel, ramrod and lock.  Using the existing stock would require a reconfiguration of the butt to a more crescent shape.  I'm not sure I have the ability to do that.  What's the best bet at this point?

[Black Hand]

Glue and screw/dowel a piece of wood to the butt end (trying to match wood and grain as much as possible).  Do your buttplate work, then refinish, staining very dark to hide the transition....

[Mike Brooks]

It is what it is and always will be what it is no matter what you do to it.

[hanshi]

It is what it is and always will be what it is no matter what you do to it.

I do know that.  It's just that I'd like to have it a wee bit easier on the eye.  I guess it deserves it too because of all the deer it has harvested.

[Captchee]

Hanshi . the deer stocker is nothing but a CVA bobcat .
 re stock it to your liking
Mike  is correct that it will never be more then what it is . but it can be alot nicer .
 here are some ideas for you

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Year ago, I think it was in Dixie's annual Blackpowder journal, a fella took a CVA or Traditions and made some changes to it to have a more authentic look and feel. You may be able to track a copy down.

Coryjoe

[bjmac]

It is what it is and always will be what it is no matter what you do to it.

I very seldom make a response on this forum ( usually I ask questions) But I take some great offense at your reply. This kind of condescension to a question really gets to me. The reason is this: if we (you) want to have newcomers to the sport, why do you and several others on this forum have this attitude? All you seem to want to do is discourage newcomers because they can't afford the custom guns that you offer. It would seem to me that the best way would be to encourage these folks to pursue the art with whatever is within their means. After all, we can't be as good as you. 

[little joe]

It is what it is and always will be what it is no matter what you do to it.

True, but a good way for a novice to learn and increase his skill level and there is  always that next project to apply these learnins on.Dig into it. Lil Joe

[Gene Carrell]

If it were mine, I would consider shaping the butt to my liking and either hammering out a  piece of heavy brass w/o a heel return or simply finishing w/o any butt plate. Done  this  aeveral times  when shortening rifles  for kids and it doesn't look bad on  a simple rifle and puts it to further use.

[rudyc]

Quote from: Mike Brooks on December 02, 2011, 06:19:07 PM

It is what it is and always will be what it is no matter what you do to it.

"I very seldom make a response on this forum ( usually I ask questions) But I take some great offense at your reply. This kind of condescension to a question really gets to me. The reason is this: if we (you) want to have newcomers to the sport, why do you and several others on this forum have this attitude? All you seem to want to do is discourage newcomers because they can't afford the custom guns that you offer. It would seem to me that the best way would be to encourage these folks to pursue the art with whatever is within their means. After all, we can't be as good as you."  

+1

rudyc

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I have contacted Mike Brooks directly with newbie questions, and via this forum and he has been helpful and encouraging.  Anyone who take the time to put together such an online tutorial as he has wants to help folks.


Coryjoe

[James Rogers]

I would agree Cory. I have had tons of help from Mike. Some people are just a little more to the point in expressing truth and some are a little more tender about hearing it. There are a couple more on this board whose posts will singe your short hairs much worse than Mike.  Could this just be spillover from another site perhaps?

[Stormrider51]

"Could this just be spillover from another site perhaps?"

And that other site is a place I no longer go.  Newcomers are the lifeblood of any sport and I've been pleased to see that everyone is treated with respect on this site.  True, Hanshi is no newcomer but not everyone out there has the time, skills, tools, space, or inclination to build a custom.  Altering a factory gun is a good way to learn.  Anyone not shooting a scoped inline is headed in the right direction in my book and deserving of our consideration and assistance.  

I sympathize with Mr. Brooks.  I spent a fair number of years making my living as a gunsmith but I never once considered limiting myself to custom muzzleloaders.  I'd have starved to death.  I helped my father make them and watched as he eventually sold rifles like the one in the attached photo for barely more than the cost of the parts and materials.  Let's face it, customs are an expensive item in a limited market.  Every shooter packing a factory made not historically correct muzzleloader today is a potential customer tomorrow.  Let's not drive them away with disparaging statements about the gun they have.
Storm

[longcruise]

Sometimes Mike gives some pretty blunt advice!  Most of the time it should be seriously considered, IMO.  Hanshi can take care of his own feelings.  He's a big boy (or girl, after all it is the internet)

I contemplated a make over on my DeerHunter but decided in the end it was just a #$@* hunt.  In order to fit a conventional butt plate, the stock will have to be shortened to the tune of the thickness of the existing rubber pad and the depth of the curve of the new butt plate.  Of course, you will be able to add in the thickness of the new butt plate, but do ya see where I'm going here?

Next, there is the trigger group which is a one piece TG and trigger assembly.  You will have to cut the existing guard off and still find an aesthetically pleasing way to keep the trigger and it's mechanism in place.  If you want set triggers, that's a whole new problem since the DH lock does not have a fly!

You need an underrib and thimbles, etc.

I found solutions to all those problems but in the end realized that for a few bucks more I could build an all new rifle!  In the end I settled for a french grey finish on the metal and put it back on the rack.

[tallbear]

Guys
Please don't make this personal.Mike stated his opinion and he is welcome to do that.Hanshi is welcome to take what he wants from everyones  responces.If a poster has a problem with what is posted he is welcome to bring it to the moderators attention.

I have to say after being a moderator for a while I have discovered it is impossible to honestly educate people without getting others noses out of joint.Someone always takes it personal.We welcome that kind of honest debate even if it gets a litttle rough sometimes.That being said here at the ALR we are not going to allow the personal attacks that frequent others boards.Feel free to  hotly debate any subject you wish just don't make it personal.

Mitch Yates

[Mike Brooks]

It is what it is and always will be what it is no matter what you do to it.

I very seldom make a response on this forum ( usually I ask questions) But I take some great offense at your reply. This kind of condescension to a question really gets to me. The reason is this: if we (you) want to have newcomers to the sport, why do you and several others on this forum have this attitude? All you seem to want to do is discourage newcomers because they can't afford the custom guns that you offer. It would seem to me that the best way would be to encourage these folks to pursue the art with whatever is within their means. After all, we can't be as good as you. 

You guys  can kiss my (foot). The guy asks how he can disguise a #$@* in the punch bowl. I tell him it will always be a #$@* in the punch bowl no matter what he does to it.. I am entitled to an opinion just as every one else is.
 Good Lord, You can buy a good barrel for $200 bucks and a lock for $125 , and spend $50 on a piece of wood and make the rest of the components from scratch. If you can't save and afford that as a beginner then you better find a different hobby. cripes, I learned to build guns working a minimum wage job.
 Let's all go have a cry over our freakin' little hurt feelings......

[Kermit]

Good on ya, Mike. Looking at the examples Captchee put up and knowing what little it costs to get a piece of plain maple with a barrel inlet, I'm wondering why that isn't the best option. When ready to move on to something different, why not take the parts one already has in the form of a "factory" gun and restock it? And then there are the little metal bits--pretty cheap to buy if that's the way to go. There's a lock and a barrel in that gun. It needs a hunk of wood and someone willing to take a small leap. IMHO.

[Captchee]

As I said , I cant disagree with Mike . Frankly no mater what you do , your still going to have a CVA  or a traditions , Jukar or other .
 But frankly IMO there is so much one can learn from  re doing such a rifle  be it from a blank or a pre  carve with inlet barrel .
 Simply put  folks have to have some skill to do what mike suggests , a lot of folks don’t . so they spend 300+ in  basics then cant finish . Either they just get overwhelmed or they lose hart .
 By redoing one of theses rifles , they still have a rifle they can shoot  while the build a new stock . They  get  to learn to inlet , make parts , shape , form , carve …. The list goes on and on .
 The other thing is they can stimulate their creativity
 They have everything they need right there
 But in the end they still have  the same make of rifle they started with . Same quality of lock , triggers , barrel . But  they have gained in experience for a minimal cost .
Personally, again what Mike said was true . No one should get hurt feelings over it , just do what you want to do , its your gun 

[docone]

I agree.
I have this Jukar that is a good firing rifle, but it just doesn't have the snap. I have tried a few rifles. They all got scrapped. I was just too inexperienced.
I plan on getting a pre-inlet stock, and inletting it all in. I have been learning, reading, getting DVDs. I have seen where I messed up before. Little things here, and there. They all added up to a project that went away.
I want this one to be a shooter. If it turns out to be a looker, all the better. One day, I want to do a rifle like I have seen, but I want some behind me before I lay out the big bucks. I have gotten better at a lot of things. I have been getting parts ready. Castings. Stuff like that.  I am looking forward to this.
One day, I will  be good enough to go full tilt.
Just need practice.

[LynnC]

OK Hanshi - Mikes right " It is what it is" and that means you can"t hurt the D@#n Thing.  No matter what you do it"ll likely still shoot  

That said, it offers an inexpensive gun to learn on.

It was asked 'What to do?"  So let see what  we can do with it.

For starters, you cut off the recoil pad.  Most of these had long pulls anyway.  No butt plate will be OK or fit a plate of your making or a sand cast plate.  Remember flatter will equal less felt recoil but in a 50 cal pick what you like.

2nd, most factory guns have a ugly hump of wood in the stock just behind the breech.  Cut down the wood and tang if need be.

Straighten out the top line of the wrist to be more parallel with the bottom line.  Round out and carry the wrist back into the butt.

Cut down the and slim the comb till you easily see thru the sights.  The front of the comb should be more pointed and not the big fat round as viewed from above.
 
The butt may have enough fat on it to carve out a little bit of a cheek piece.

Cut down and reshape those big fat lock panels.  

Pick a trigger guard of your liking, file it up and inlet it.  Just pick one that will span the old inlet.  They are cheap from TOTW and anything will beat the stock one!

Consider casting a pewter nose cap.  lots of good advice here on the subject.

Slim and round the forearm, top bottom and sides.  Reveal a bit more than half the side barrel flat.   Taper the bottom from the breech forward to the RR entry.  Round it up bottom to top, rolling sides to almost knife edge at top by barrel.

Maybe add an under rib - could even be wooden

Scrape out a real hickory RR with a taper and swelled on the business end.

Look at some of the rebuild projects that have been posted in the past.  Off the top of my head, one Lyman GPR by D. Taylor Sapergia stands out.  There have been several others that really improved the fit and looks.

These are just some of the things you might do to make your rifle a bit more presentable on a budget.  I bet you'll enjoy the project and learn a bunch - Then you'll be more confident if you choose to ever build one from scratch.
And remember, You can't hurt the D@#n thing   Just do it.  Hope this helps .........................Lynn

[bjmac]

It is what it is and always will be what it is no matter what you do to it.

I very seldom make a response on this forum ( usually I ask questions) But I take some great offense at your reply. This kind of condescension to a question really gets to me. The reason is this: if we (you) want to have newcomers to the sport, why do you and several others on this forum have this attitude? All you seem to want to do is discourage newcomers because they can't afford the custom guns that you offer. It would seem to me that the best way would be to encourage these folks to pursue the art with whatever is within their means. After all, we can't be as good as you. 

You guys  can kiss my (foot). The guy asks how he can disguise a #$@* in the punch bowl. I tell him it will always be a #$@* in the punch bowl no matter what he does to it.. I am entitled to an opinion just as every one else is.
 Good Lord, You can buy a good barrel for $200 bucks and a lock for $125 , and spend $50 on a piece of wood and make the rest of the components from scratch. If you can't save and afford that as a beginner then you better find a different hobby. cripes, I learned to build guns working a minimum wage job.
 Let's all go have a cry over our freakin' little hurt feelings......

Mike - you miss my point. I'm only saying that you should be encouraging someone that wants to learn - not disparaging their choice of the path. As to your costing out ($375.00) I live on less than $1100.00 per month (Social Security) so while it may be an insignificant amount to you, it is a great deal to me. My only option at this point is to buy the "#$@* in the punch bowl" and learn what I can. I apologize if I hurt your feelings and I hope that you can understand my point. I would love to be able to purchase a "non-#$@* in a punch bowl" but I think that you can see my dilemma. I stand by my statement that we should encourage learning, regardless of the available choices. Also, I will not kiss your.....

[Stormrider51]

No Mike, I won't kiss your foot or any other part of your anatomy.  Your attitude is wrong.  There's no other way to see it.  Your unmentionables are in a wad because not everyone buys one of your guns.  Not everybody can afford one or at the very least might be able to afford only one and a couple of lesser guns to boot.  I was  lucky.  I grew up in the home of a man who began making replicas of original muzzleloaders in the 1950's.  He rifled his own barrels.  His stocks all started out as a slab of maple or cherry and he turned them into pieces of art.  I witnessed the importation of the first factory muzzleloaders by Navy Arms, CVA, and others.  I didn't like them because they weren't "right" and didn't look like what I was used to.  But I bought a used CVA "Kentucky" with a two-piece stock and re-stocked it into something that looked "right" to me.  Know what?  It was a shooter.  I won matches with it.  Later on I bought a CVA Mountain Rifle kit and couldn't stand the screw holes in the forend cap or the screwed on ramrod ferrules.  I cast on a new forend cap and made up new ferrules that I soldered to the rib.  I altered the trigger guard and slimmed the excess wood from the stock.  That was a shooter too.  This was how I learned.  I'm sorry you feel the need to dump on anyone who wants to modify a factory gun into something more suitable.  I also know that I'll never order a gun from you because of your attitude.  You shoot yourself in the foot with posts like the one I saw here. 

[dannybb55]

 

It is what it is and always will be what it is no matter what you do to it.

I very seldom make a response on this forum ( usually I ask questions) But I take some great offense at your reply. This kind of condescension to a question really gets to me. The reason is this: if we (you) want to have newcomers to the sport, why do you and several others on this forum have this attitude? All you seem to want to do is discourage newcomers because they can't afford the custom guns that you offer. It would seem to me that the best way would be to encourage these folks to pursue the art with whatever is within their means. After all, we can't be as good as you. 

You guys  can kiss my (foot). The guy asks how he can disguise a #$@* in the punch bowl. I tell him it will always be a #$@* in the punch bowl no matter what he does to it.. I am entitled to an opinion just as every one else is.
 Good Lord, You can buy a good barrel for $200 bucks and a lock for $125 , and spend $50 on a piece of wood and make the rest of the components from scratch. If you can't save and afford that as a beginner then you better find a different hobby. cripes, I learned to build guns working a minimum wage job.
 Let's all go have a cry over our freakin' little hurt feelings......

[Paul Griffith]

Question (dumb): What is the best direction to take with this project?  I don't know if it's possible to get what I want with the steps I've taken.  Cost is a factor so a suitable pre-carved stock would have to be plain but inlet for barrel, ramrod and lock.  Using the existing stock would require a reconfiguration of the butt to a more crescent shape.  I'm not sure I have the ability to do that.


As to the original queston. What I would do is pick up an afforable piece of wood (OK, cheap) & see what you're made of as far as inlettilng of the lock, barrel  & so on. You might surprise yourself. Remember while you attempt anything that time is of no concern, if it took you a year, so what, when you get it done you'll have to look for something else to do. It's one inlet at a time & by doing it this way you will have the original stock for a pattern AND you will have it to use if you feel your work isn't up to par.  Plus you've got forums like this one to assist you.

Paul

[ottawa]

pecatonica river longrifles supply have some good pricing on their stocks figure out what style you want and check them out . you could always check out lumber supply stores for wood it's your build go the way you want if your looking at a particular school then go that way your only limited by yourself on what to build . as for the parts you already have they are not top self but the shoot well that's what matters . I buy what I can afford if its a cva Kentucky or what ever for $50 and then invest in a piece of wood and practice and come out with something I like yippee true you can winde up spending a lot of $ trying to redo one of these and still have a CVA worth $100 more with $200 in parts but your not building to sell your building for you.  just watch out for the money pit once you start  been their done that but that's why its called learning. I would rather have spent $200 then $500 on parts and still have a $150 rifle. its all in the fun of doing if we did not enjoy the doing then where would this hobby/sport be?