Author Topic: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.  (Read 9997 times)

Offline hanshi

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Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« on: December 12, 2011, 02:57:46 AM »
Hey, Capt.  You posted three pics in the "fight" thread of redone cheapies.   I really like the top one; is that the original stock?

Apologies.  Hey, I just logged in and noticed an uproar had developed because of my question about the DeerHunter.  I feel like the guy who started a bar fight and then left.  That was not my intention.  The gun in question is just a 20 plus year old Christmas present.  Being frugal - I chew my tobacco twice and then smoke it - I thought I'd put a pretty dress (home made) on an ugly daughter, so to speak.   I am NOT offended and will be the first to admit the minimalism represented by said firelock.   I fear I may have stirred up some lingering animosities, however.  I'm cool with everybody and harbor no resentment whatsoever.  In fact, I basically agree with the opinions expressed about the rifle.

I'm not a tyro, having bought my first ML in the mid 1960s.  I have a couple of nice custom guns and a couple-three decent OTC pieces.  The gun in question is a loaner, knock-around that needs a bit of "ugly" removed, that's all.

I apologize if this was my fault.  As for talented builders who won't frequent this forum because it's "beneath" them; all I can say is that Christ spent most of his life among prostitutes, leapers and thieves.  Can't we all follow his example by spending our time kindly with each other?
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2011, 03:07:41 AM »
No apologies needed. you're welcome here.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2011, 03:13:42 AM »
No apologies needed. you're welcome here.
I agree.  Most of that stuff needed to be aired out anyway, you were just the unfortunate one to bring it to the forefront. 8)
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Offline LynnC

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2011, 03:32:11 AM »
You did nothing wrong.....

I would hope the thread is not deleted because there might be a thing or two you could use to fix up your "ugly duckling"

At most maybe edit out the politics and leave the helpful pics and info - hopefully not a full delete.

Anyway, I hope you gleaned something you can use on your project........Lynn
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2011, 03:40:06 AM »
Hanshi,
No sweat. Glad to see you here.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

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Stone River

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2011, 03:46:35 AM »
Awesome!!
     I agree with Lynn and all.  Save the picts, the rest can just go away.  That's the problem with posts and e-mails, they are 2-dimentional.  Depending on what frame of mind you are in when your read it colors it.  I try to keep that in mind whenever I post something or read a response.  Ok, let's see what can be done for Hansi and move on.  As a greenhorn I value this site tremendously and everyone belonging to it.  Hopefully every member can have fun and lend a hand when they can!!!

stone river

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2011, 03:49:39 AM »
Hanshi,
Knew there was no offense intended on your part, glad there is no offense taken. Mike, good response, glad to see you are on board.
Mark
Mark

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2011, 05:55:03 AM »
Hanshi
Don't sweat it.
Stuff like this needs to be discussed. You just happened to push the button this time. Nothing to apologize for.

However, in any such discussion some immediately assume that a person who makes guns is trying to increase sales by calling the mass produced guns names. This is not the case.

If the locks and barrels were properly designed and assembled the LOOKS of the mass produced guns would be relatively unimportant. But the exterior workmanship, such as shaping like a modern stock design and contouring, is matched by poor design and fit INTERNALLY as well where it becomes a safety or reliability problem.
The used ones often shot with corrosive substitutes that can cause SERIOUS internal damage to critical parts so buying a used one from a pawn shop for example is REALLY scary. IF the person considering the purchase understands all the possibilities.
But if the problems and potential problems are mentioned then people who own the mass produced guns and/or use the powder get their back up since they see it as a personal attack which it is not.
YEARS ago another poster here and myself wondered how long it would be before the mass produced guns with the fouling traps being shot with corrosive substitutes would start to produce catastrophic failures due to internal, hidden, corrosion.
I am astounded there are not holes eaten from the inside out. Given the assembly technique (and this applies to some custom barrels too BTW) and the virulent properties of one particular substitute's fouling, the findings of a friend from YEARS ago, its gotta happen sooner or later. Or has and its just not widely known.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2011, 02:35:55 PM »
I read about a tragedy involving a production muzzle loader that was said to be caused by a rust ring that occured because the breech plug threads were a bit too short.The breech plug and part of the barrel blew off and created hideous injuries to the shooter, I don't know if the rust was caused by real back powder or one of the corrosive substitutes. If I an not badly mistaken,I think the article was in the now defunct Buckskin Report in the late 70's or early 80's.

Bob Roller

dannybb55

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2011, 02:48:21 PM »
I am just waiting to see how long it takes for them to be built on an AR lower receiver, like everything else in the shooting world, maybe with a really long 22 in Bbl. :'(

Offline Metalshaper

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2011, 04:07:42 PM »
I am just waiting to see how long it takes for them to be built on an AR lower receiver, like everything else in the shooting world, maybe with a really long 22 in Bbl. :'(

They are out there!!  :D

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2011, 04:14:29 PM »
Glad to see civility emerge from the scrum.  I expect no less, having been impressed from the beginning with the sort of folks who admire the American longrifle.

Let's keep the longrifle the center of our discussions!  :)
Andover, Vermont

Offline Captchee

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2011, 06:13:56 PM »
 
 LMAO you mean like this modern design. and yes its out there  
PLEASE , dont ask me how i know  :-X

 

hanshi
that would be this stock











 this rifle started out as a plastic stocked CVA bobcat .
at  the time I was working on a De Chase . The customer wanted me to restock the rifle for his wife .
   To make a long story sort , I gave Dick at Pecatonica  a call . Ask him if he had a De Chase stock that the forearm was  un usable  or  sub par . He did . So I had him cut of the  forearm and  inlet for the  CVA barrel ..  You should know that the De Chase stock is A LOT bigger  in girth. So a lot of wood needs to be taken off to  get it down .
  The brass is just made up of parts I had laying around in my shop .
So no the stock isn’t the original stock .  At the time I  redid that rifle , the parts , stock and such came to less then 100 ..  2 X what the  bobcats were selling for .
 but thats not uncommon for custom stocks  . i have restocked shotguns where the wood for the stock was  far, FAR more then the  cost of the original gun
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 06:28:17 PM by Captchee »

Offline hanshi

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2011, 10:20:29 PM »
I am just waiting to see how long it takes for them to be built on an AR lower receiver, like everything else in the shooting world, maybe with a really long 22 in Bbl. :'(

 :D :D :D ;)
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2011, 10:34:54 PM »

 LMAO you mean like this modern design. and yes its out there  
PLEASE , dont ask me how i know  :-X

 

hanshi
that would be this stock











 this rifle started out as a plastic stocked CVA bobcat .
at  the time I was working on a De Chase . The customer wanted me to restock the rifle for his wife .
   To make a long story sort , I gave Dick at Pecatonica  a call . Ask him if he had a De Chase stock that the forearm was  un usable  or  sub par . He did . So I had him cut of the  forearm and  inlet for the  CVA barrel ..  You should know that the De Chase stock is A LOT bigger  in girth. So a lot of wood needs to be taken off to  get it down .
  The brass is just made up of parts I had laying around in my shop .
So no the stock isn’t the original stock .  At the time I  redid that rifle , the parts , stock and such came to less then 100 ..  2 X what the  bobcats were selling for .
 but thats not uncommon for custom stocks  . i have restocked shotguns where the wood for the stock was  far, FAR more then the  cost of the original gun


Capt,
You broke my heart with that particular rebuild.  I'd thought of doing like some of the other pics had shown and that would have brought joy to my heart.  But that Bobcat with the de chase stock has ruined me for anything else.

My stock is wood and the gun came from Kmart 21 years ago.  I know an unfinished stock will cost more than the original gun but.....dang if I can be satisfied with anything less.  I'll do as you did and check around for an unusable de chase stock and have it inlet for barrel and ramrod.  If you have any advice please PM or email me.  Thanks.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2011, 11:28:07 PM »
You manufactured a lot of shavings and the nice looking rifle is a by product. That new fangled gun doesn't have a ramrod or any kind of a lock. Must be some sort of an underhammer.{:-)

Bob Roller

Offline Captchee

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2011, 05:02:12 AM »
hanshi
 not much to PM you about , it is what it is. one thing that i would tell you though is that  its alot nicer if you  make a new standing breech  with a nice  tang and profiled to the barrel vs using the  factory setup which makes the tang area rather fuggly .
 Here is a photo the standing breech I did for the  full stocked CVA squirrel rifle .
With that customer he wanted everything to be directly  interchangeable  back into the old stock. Thus he didn’t want the sights messed with . So I used  the lock , barrel and triggers .  Carved the stock from a blank , TG is all plate brass  as is the side plate  and RR pipes .  The butt plate I cast  using lost foam .
 here is what the gu started out like


 and  here it is with a new full stock . as i said  all the main parts will simply drop back into the original stock  for when his grand daughter gets  bigger








 BOB ill send you a PM . probably dont want to talk about that  other gun here .
 but yes it does have a RR  its right below the barrel .
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 05:26:22 AM by Captchee »

docone

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2011, 06:18:06 AM »
You did a nice job on that rifle.
Why though, would anyone want to go back to the original stock, when they have that one?
I am doing the same thing with my .45 Jukar. I will keep it that way though.
That looks good.
How many pins does the barrel have? Did you use the original front screw with the nosecap?

Offline hanshi

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2011, 07:32:41 AM »
Thanks for the info, Capt.  This is actually getting beyond what I intended to do with the gun.  The plan was to use the lock, barrel and trigger at the very least.  If the original stock can be profiled to suit and a brass butt plate and tg installed I'll be satisfied.  If not then a "new" reject stock of some sort is a possibility.  I guess I need this practice anyway because I have plans to get a quality kit to build up when the opportunity comes.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Captchee

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2011, 05:56:15 PM »
Quote
Why though, would anyone want to go back to the original stock, when they have that one?
well  the  gun was for a small girl . right now she is only 8 . while its hard to tell from the photos , the draw length of the new stock , is  only 10 inchs vs the 13 inchs of the original stock .
 Thus he wanted something that  his granddaughter could shoot now , then as she out grew the stock  she would  be able to still use the rifle .
 I shoot with this family often and what he didn’t count on was that  both his  granddaughter would take to shooting so much  .  Im thinking the older grandaughter will probably  be  wanting a full sized rifle in the next  few years . So the younger one will end up with this one  .
As such the  original stock probably wont ever see the light of day again. unless its for their mother who only shoots now and then .
 Some times people just want what they want ..
 The rifle has 1 pin .  I made a new under lug   to replace the original keyed lug .
 The barrel  under rib was removed .. What I did was use the screw locations for the  under rib   and longer  counter sunk screws so as to attach the forestock to the barrel ..
Again  the customer wanted the gun to be completely capable of being put back into original  condition . This meant no modifications to  either the way the gun went together .
  As such I could not cut dove tails .
 So to put that gun back to original condition , one just  takes out the barrel   by pulling one pin and removing 2 screws .  Pushes out the under lug and replaces it with the original . Removes the triggers and sets them back into the original stock  .  Then screw the original  under rib back in place.  Since I did not use the original RR pipes . They are still attached to the  under rib ..
 So basically it takes very little more  to put the gun back  to original then it would take to do a  good cleaning  

Quote
The plan was to use the lock, barrel and trigger at the very least.  If the original stock can be profiled to suit and a brass butt plate and tg installed I'll be satisfied.

 Well  your not going to get a Tulle stock profile out of your existing stock Hanshi .
 But you  could add a brass butt plate . Doing so will shorten the draw though .

 The other thing you could do is  re shape the mortises and wrist so as to slim the gun down. Add a small patch box . Maybe even a pewter  or Brass nose cap  , Brass rr pipe  and entry .
 Your don’t have to stay  with some big clunky  CVA type nose cap either.
  Here is a Gar Tail nose cap and a pewter Tang  inlay   that I did on a Traditions pistol  revamp  for another customer  . You could do the same on  your stock with very little work . Your tang should look just like the above photo





 But anyway if you just stayed with the basics , you should be able to come up with something more along these  lines , easily enough
 While this stock is of English walnut , the customer wanted the very same basic profile and draw , as the original plastic stock. But with some  bling  and a couple personal items  that had meaning to her .  
 As such in this case I had to hold more closely to the  original stock  lines  and  up around the breech .
  IE more to what your talking about .
 So using the original stock as a base , this is what I came up with











 Here is a shot of the butt plate  prior to  final sanding  of the stock and  shaping of the  toe


 Now as to the RR pipe .    Often times folks want a brass  pipe , which never was available on these rifles . So  what I do is cut  the plastic pipe off and replace it with a brass one . This allows me to keep the original base  with attachment and give the brass pipe that’s ask for









  Before you go doing much though Hanshi ,  lay your stock out and trace it on paper . Do some playing with the drawings , let your imagination run . Once you like what you see on paper , then  start applying  those ideas to your existing stock . Remember the 7Ps .
Proper ,prior , planning , prevents ,!$@! , poor , performance  
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 06:02:41 PM by Captchee »

Offline LynnC

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2011, 06:56:17 PM »
Tracing that stock and sketching on it till you work out something you like is Excellent Advise.
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline hanshi

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2011, 11:14:18 PM »
Capt, that's the sort of info I need.  Gives me some great ideas which I will investigate.  Thanks.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

excess650

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2011, 02:27:09 AM »
I think that little fullstock to be a wonderful transformation other than the sights.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2011, 02:50:07 AM »
ALR .mission statement:
Quote
The mission of AmericanLongrifles.com is to promote and support the art and craft of building historically accurate long rifles, related firearms, and accoutrements of the highest quality and artistic merit. 
 
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

sleddman

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Re: Sorry, Guys, and a question for Capt.
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2011, 03:10:49 AM »
When I look through the forum I just dont post on topics that dont interest me.   

To me working on any rifle is all part of this forum.