Cleaning Woes - Been down this road before

[eagle24]

I've asked this question before, but I'm asking again.  I struggle getting the barrels clean on any of my 3 rifles EVERY TIME!  I think I have read every post on here about how you folks clean your rifles, even the one(s) I started a couple of years ago.  When I first started shooting a few years ago, I learned that I shouldn't use hot water, shouldn't use soap, shouldn't do this, shouldn't do that, etc...  I've tried about everything and it still takes me an hour (or more) to get a barrel clean.  Then I still have traces of rust the next day.  In reality, it's about 3 days of cleaning everyday before I have it completely taken care of.  I get frustrated evertime I read where somebody used cool water and returned perfectly clean patches after the 4th or 5th patch.

The last two cleaning episodes went like this.  Shot 20 or so shots using trappers mink oil as lube.  15 minute drive home from the range.  Removed the barrel from the stock, plugged the flash hole, filled the barrel with cold water to soften the fouling.  Took about 15 cleaning patches with cold water to get to the point I wasn't getting any black (fouling) out of the barrel, but by the time the black goes away, I start getting faint signs of rust.  Finally give up on the rust going away and spray the barrel with a liberal dose of WD-40 and run clean patches in and out(several times).  This eventually makes the rust dissapear, but some fouling shows back up.  Go through all this a couple more times until no more rust and no more fouling.  Soak a patch with Ballistol, run it in and out several times, run a dry patch in and out, then one final patch with a little ballistol to lightly coat the bore.  Clean the lock (no issues there), put the barrel back in the stock, lock back in, and done!

Next two days, I got light rust and spend another 15 minutes or so cleaning and oiling the bore.  By day 4 or 5 I usually have it whipped and my rifle is clean.

Gotta tell you, this is taking a lot of enjoyment out of my flintlock shooting and hunting.  I'm not giving up by any means and if this is the way it's gonna be, then it is what it is, but I have to believe I'm doing something to cause this.  I'll stop here, it's making me mad typing this.  Any suggestions would be welcome and greatly appreciated.

The only thing I can think of is that I use a mixture of simple green and alchohol at the range at times to wipe the bore when it gets hard to load.  When cleaning, just cold water.

[William Worth]

Rust begats rust.  What does the bore look like with a strong light shone down it? 

I would drop the Simple Green and alcohol between shot wipe.

Not to flaunt it, but I clean up with one or two patches after usually...5-10 strokes.  The bore looks like a mirror.  But the longest I've ever let the dirty barrel stay dirty was as long as it takes to get back in the house.  Actually, when I have concluded shooting, I'll run one or two LHV wetted patches down the pipe at the bench to serve as a pre-cleaning and to hold me until I can clean it, after that, it's water.  I have never allowed a barrel to go uncleaned as long as a few hours.

[cahil_2]

Clean my flinter with 4 to 5 patches.  I use one of those hoses that you clamp over the touch hole.  I drop it in water.  I wet a patch and start pumping to get the water coming in and out.  I do this until I see black coming out of the tube in the bowl of water.  I unhook the tool and then run 1 to 2 patches with black solve down the barrel to insure I have gotten all the fouling out.  Then I run 1 patch of WD 40, (WD meaning water displacing) down the barrel and follow that with one patch of barricade.  I never have a rust problem.  One day last summer I cleaned at the range and for got the barricade and a couple of days later I had rust.  Try that. 

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

If anyone ever really comes up with a way of getting a black powder gun clean, please let me know first.  It just is part of the sport that they are difficult to clean, so we should try to enjoy that aspect also.  As for me, I shoot wrought iron barrels that have lots of sneaky places for the crud to hide and then come out later to surprise you.  Modern steel barrels are much better behaved here.  I clean the gun after shooting as you all do.  But I run an oily patch (3 in 1 oil) down the bore every day for many days.  It just becomes part of my daily routine to swab the guns.  Look at it as part of the fun of shooting.

Jim Everett

[excess650]

I usually need only a few patches.  I remove the lock from my flinter and lay iit across the basement sink.  I squirt a water and dishwashing liquid mix in the bore and follow it with a damp patch.  After a few repititions, I use a dry patch and then WD40-squirt in the bore, follow with patch and wipe off the excess.  After wiping down the exterior of the barrel and stock, I clean and oil the lock, reassemble and store muzzle down.

I HAVE let my flinter go uncleaned for several days in low humidity situations with no visible rust.  The fact that I use TOW Mink oil for lube, and particularly in hunting situations probably helps.

[Eric Krewson]

What you are calling fowling on later cleaning patches is probably graphite, not water soluble won't hurt your barrel.  I always have a gray patch after about the 5th patch and stop at that.

If I am not shooting my rifles I still run a Ballistol soaked patch down the bore every few weeks. I always get a little faint rust red on my patch, very, very little. The bore will look like a mirror and I still get a little.

Try Hoppe's #9 Plus as a patch lube when you are going to shooting a while, really breaks up fowling and no swabbing between shots is necessary.

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

I know a lot of guys here say no soap and cold water. Well I've been doing it wrong all these years but no rust. I clean the rifle with the hottest tap water I can get with a few drops of liquid dishwash detergent to make the water wetter not for suds. Put the breech end in the water and with a patch on the rammer pump the liquid up and down till it comes out clear ( 8 or 10 pumps I guess ) Dump the water and get clean hot water new patch and pump another 8-10 pumps to rinse the inside. run dry patches till they come out dry a quick wipe with WD-40 wipe that out and an oil patch with Rem Oil. drop in my bore light to check smooth and shiney like a mirror. Rinse the lock with straight tap hot water. blow out any water and oil it. put it all back together. Done, till next time I shoot. No Rust Never. That's the way I do it. Works for me.

[SCLoyalist]

GH,  I'm thinking you possibly may be trying to get the bore too clean before you shift from water to dry patches. My routine is plug vent, fill bore w/ tepid/cool tap water, let sit for 15-20 minutes,  dump,  use 3 or 4 damp patches, then refill half the bore with water and slosh it around a bit, dump.   Then another 5 to 10 damp patches  until they come out a uniform light gray.   Then remove toothpick from vent and start running dry patches to get the bore dry.  Usually after a few dry patches the patch will suddenly come out dry and clean, and ready for a Ballistol soaked patch. 

You probably need  somebody who has sold his soul to Satan for the secret of cleaning     perfected his cleaning technique looking over your shoulder.  There are several variables, like size of the patches, tightness (I try for a loose fit going down the bore with the jag catching and bunching the material up on removal) of the patching,  etc that can affect how difficult the job is.  A pair of eyeballs looking over your shoulder might spot what's making the job such a pain for you.
  Good luck, SCL

[Pvt. Lon Grifle]

Ballistol is water soluble. WD-40 is not.  Lon

[Ron T.]

I mostly shoot my two percussion cap Hawken rifles, but the cleaning method should be the same since I also remove the barrels and wash them.

I've been shooting black powder for a little over 3 years now and I've never heard that one shouldn't use HOT water to clean the barrel.  In fact, several of the old timers in our Long Rifle Club told me to use the hottest water I can find... and so I do... and I don't have any problem at all with rust.

I remove the barrel from the stock, fill a small pail with EXTREMELY hot water and a small amount of dish washing soap, leave the flash hole open, put the rear of the barrel down in the pail of HOT water, put a patch on my ramrod and work it up and down in the rifle's bore.... causing the hot water to be pulled up the barrel to the muzzle with each stroke of the ramrod.  I run the ramrod up and down in the barrel maybe 10 or 15 times, flushing that nasty black debris out of the barrel.

I sit the barrel aside, empty the black water into the toilet, rinse the pail out with super hot water and put enough very hot water into the pail to more than cover the flash-hole, put a clean patch on my jag, put the end of the barrel down into the water and repeat the action of running the ramrod up and down in the barrel to wash out the soap.  AFter 10 or 15 "strokes", I lay the barrel aside and dump the water down the toilet and refill the pail to about half way up once again.

Again, I add a new patch to the jag and run the ramrod up and down in the barrel to insure all the soap is cleaned out.  By then, the patch is coming out perfectly clean.  After another 10 or so "stokes" of the ramrod, I lay the ramrod aside and use my small air-compressor's 100 pounds of compressed air to blow the barrel, nipple and open screw hole in the rifle's drum clear of all water and moisture.

Once the very HOT barrel has been blown dry... and it dries out FAST due to the heat retained in the barrel's steel, I slide my small barrel light down the barrel and inspect the barrel for cleanliness and debris.  It has always been totally free of debris and is always shiny, bright clean.

After insuring the nipple and drum are clean and dry by blowing high air pressure into their openings, I use a pressurized can of Ballistol to spray into the flash channel through the empty screw hole in the drum... and I also squirt pressurized Ballistol into the nipple to lubricate and protect it as well.

Then I wet a clean white patch with a generous amount of Ballistol from the larger can of Ballistol. fit the patch into the slotted ramrod tip, screw the slotted tip into my ramrod and slowly run the slotted tip down the barrel, spin it a little and slowly bring the Ballistol patch back up the barrel to the muzzle, spin the rod a little again, and push the ramrod back down to the bottom of the barrel.  I repeat this operation until I'm sure I've circled the bore at least TWICE.  Then I lay the barrel aside and clean up the wood.

Once everything is clean and oiled, I put the barrel back into the stock and stand the rifle, muzzle DOWN, in the corner with the rifle's muzzle on a folded over paper towel to catch any Ballistol that might drip out of the barrel over the next several days.

I've been cleaning my cap-locks this way for more than 3 years so far and have never had a "rust problem" due to the heat of the water which heats up the steel in the barrel which causes the barrel to dry itself fairly quickly plus the drying effect of the high pressure air from the small, blue Campbell-Hausfeld air-compressor with twin round air tanks that I purchased at Harbor Freight for less than $80 on sale for exactly this purpose... and it works beautifully!

Just prior to leaving the house to go to the rifle range, I use the air-compressor's compressed air to blow any remaining Ballistol out of the flash-channel and nipple and the lower area in the barrel by an extended "blowing" through the nipple and the screw-hole in the drum.  Once that is finished, I replace the screw in the threaded clean-out opening in the drum and I'm ready to go shooting.

At the range, I usually shoot one or two percussion caps through the nipple to insure the flash-channel is open and the bottom of the bore is dry.  Then I load the rifle and begin shooting.

It sounds to me as if someone has told you to use COLD water... and I don't understand why when several long-time muzzle-loader shooters told me exactly the OPPOSITE... and HOT water works a LOT better... and the HOTTER, the BETTER!~!~!  I believe the COLD water is a big part of your rust-problem.  If the steel were HOT rather than COLD, the HOT steel would eliminate the moisture almost immediately once the water was poured out of the barrel.  Of course, a good "blowing out" with 100 lbs of compressed air also helps gets rid of the moisture, too.

Jus' my 2¢... I hope it helps you...   


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

[plastikosmd]

Sometimes it is the gun. I have maybe 15 bp guns. 2 will flash or delay rust all the time. I practically store them in oil. Thank god these were not my first 2 or I would have quit the hobby. They drive me to drink! Down to one bad one now as I traded the more modern one for a stainless version

[excess650]

Ballistol is water soluble. WD-40 is not.  Lon

Yeah, WD40 is a water displacing oil. 

[HardBall]

Next two days, I got light rust and spend another 15 minutes or so cleaning and oiling the bore.  By day 4 or 5 I usually have it whipped and my rifle is clean.

For my usual patch lube and BP cleaning solution I mix Ballistol 1:1 with Water- I use only Ballistol for it's final oiling before storage.  Ballistol oil, not the aerosol Ballistol- I use the aerosol for other stuff, however.

If I were having your problem I would mix a fresh batch of Ballistol and distilled water.   ...You may have something in your water that's helping to promoting rust.

Also, how are you storing you rifle?  Is it in a very breathable material?  

The one, and only, time I had light surface rusting of a bore (thus far) was when I first started using Ballistol and had removed and dunked the barrel in a water bucket and pumped it clean with plain water.  I then ran dry patching and finish up with a Ballistol oiled patches- however, I then stuck the rifle in a typical canvas, soft gun case.  Some weeks later I checked it and had faint rust color on my patching.  Only took a few oiled patches before they came out clean.  My theory was that there was remaining moisture in the bore and it couldn't evaporate fast enough.

[cahil_2]

Greg, remember that cleaning your gun is a labor of love!

[William Worth]

So riddle me this...take a clean piece (solvent wiped, whatever) of carbon steel and pour boiling water on it.  I see flash rust-instantly.  Things happen faster at higher temperatures, in this case, oxidation.

I'm in the cold water camp side of this debate. 

[eagle24]

Thanks for the replies and comments.  At least a few are admitting faint rust a day or so after cleaning.  Here are a few things I have learned over the last 2 years of experimenting and cleaning my rifles that I believe to be FACTS (based solely on my 1st hand experience).

1. Hot water cleans better.
2. Hot water with ivory dish detergent even better.
3. Hot water causes flash rust.
4. Cold water takes longer to clean
5. Cold water doesn't cause flash rust.
6. Cleaning with hot or cold water, soap or no soap, followed by swabbing with
    WD-40 yields the same result.
5. Cleaning after shooting with Mink Oil lube takes longer than after shooting with
    my "moose milk" lube.
6. I have to clean my rifles (all 3) for several consecutive days to get them where a
    patch returns no rust weeks later.

[raa]

I can tell you what I have experienced.  I used to pump water through the barrel, followed by dry patches and then oiled patches.  After this I would need to clean a little light rust out for a few days.  

Now I 1) take the lock off and clean/oil it, 2) wet a patch in cold water, wring it out, and run it down the bore; rinse the patch off in the sink, wring it out, and run it down again; repeat a thrid time with a new patch, 3) wipe off the barrel and touch hole area with the last wet patch, 4) run two dry patches down the bore, 5) run one oily patch down the bore, 7) put the lock back on, and 8 ) wipe down the whole gun with a dry rag.

This all takes about 15 minutes, and since I have done it this way I have had no problems with rust.

[bgf]

One thing about the cold/hot soap/no soap debate.  The cold water without detergent doesn't remove some patch lubricant residue, in my experience; this may apply to mink oil, but I don't know.  I use plain cold water if I use spit patches, but anything with grease or oil in it seems to need at least detergent and preferably hot water.  One session won't tell the tale, but a half dozen with lube build up will start to show some degradation of accuracy.  The worst case is the "seasoned" barrel or the one with lube residue built up, where you can have rust underneath that "non-stick coating"; I hate to say it, but it happened to me because I listened to some experts and believed the label of a wonderful lube .  Luckily 2 days (in my spare time) of lapping and scrubbing got the seasoning and rust out, and the bore seems OK since.  If the build-up is not too bad, a little non-chlorinated brake cleaner will take it off.  I usually run a patch of that after drying and before oiling, just to be sure because of bad past experience, but it isn't essential if you aren't seeing any buildup.

When using hot water, I don't have the dreaded flash rust, but I think that is just luck of climate or something.  When I was trying to protect the bore with "natural" lubricants, I would get rust quickly between shooting sessions, but with only WD40, I have seen a clean bore go several months without even a tint of rust.  My opinion is that if rust is showing up days after cleaning and lubing, there is some problem in the barrel, probably related to something you are doing, but not a moral failing on your part .

As remarked, everyone has a different experience or perspective on cleaning.  This is mine only and not meant to diminish anyone else's.  You might just want to scrub (and possibly polish) it out good and try something entirely different.

[hanshi]

It usually takes me 15-20 patches to get a gun clean.  I've used hot and cold water and see no benefit of one over the other.  I do use a dab of Dawn detergent in the cleaning water and sometimes send down a patch made from Scotchbrite.  Bores often exude graphite for days after a good cleaning and it's nothing to worry over.

My bores remain pretty bright, one after nearly 45 years.  I'm not at all sure that everything that's called rust is rust.  Some of it is indeed rust.  I'm pretty sure I have some very minor surface rust in a couple of bores but it is of no consequence that I can see.  A gun that's used a lot will sometimes show that.

One thing I did was to get an old hair dryer and thoroughly dry out the bore prior to oiling.  I finish up with Barricade which does at least as well as the high quality but  messier gun oils.  I oil swab the bore again the next day and then every week for the next couple of.  Basically all you need to do is clean out the fouling, dry it bone dry and then swab with a good rust preventative.

[Stormrider51]

My cleaning process takes about 30 minutes and most of that is waiting for water to boil.  I've got an old aluminum camping pot that I fill with water and put on the fire to heat.  While that is happening I remove the lock and then the flint from the jaws of the cock.  No point in getting the leather that holds the flint wet.  I remove the barrel from the stock and the vent liner from the barrel.  I lay out about 10 cleaning patches, my cleaning rod with proper jag, and a spray can of cleaner/lubricant/protectorant (Breakfree clone), and an old tooth brush on the bench.  When the water boils I add a couple drops of dish detergent, carry the pot out to the shop and set it on the floor.  Holding the lock by the frizzen, I swish it around in the hot water and then use the tooth brush to remove any remaining fouling.  The lock is set aside to cool.  Next, the breech end of the barrel is put into the water and I use patches on the rod and jag to pump water in and out of he barrel.  I'll change patches two or three times and then remove the barrel from the pot and let the excess water run out.  I immediately wet a patch liberally with the CLP and run up and down the bore.  The water will have evaporated off and the oil is heated so that it spreads out into an even coat and penetrates into crevices.  I use two additional oiled patches in the bore after the first and wipe down the outside of the barrel with the last one which will be clean.  I spray down the lock and clean the vent liner seperately.  Everything goes back together.  I'll come back a day or two later and run an oiled patch down the bore to be sure all is well.

Just a few random thoughts.  BP fouling is water soluble so water will remove it from a bore.  If not, something is coating it and forming a barrier to the water.  Lube is the first suspect.  Hot water tends to thin down lubes and detergent helps break them up.  

I wipe between shots to help minimize fouling in the bore.  I used to use spit but my mouth seems drier nowadays so I use a 6:1 mix of water and Ballistol.  

There's absolutely no reason for rust to form unless moisture is able to contact steel in the presence of oxygen.  Somewhere in this sequence lies your problem unless you are applying something to the bore that is itself corrosive.

Good luck.  I always tell people that it takes me no more time to clean my BP guns that it does to clean a modern one.  I hope you get there too.

Storm

[B.Habermehl]

For my 2 cents worth. I usually use Simple Green soap for a patch lube for range use and olive oil for a hunting lube.  When I clean up I use simple geen soap, no additional water.  If the gun is really dirty I'll plug the touch hole with a tooth pick and pour a ounce or so of SG down the barrel then put my finger over the muzzle and slosh it around. The go and clean the lock, or have a coffie or somthing. I usually clean the lock in the sink with hot water, and blow dry with the compressor, then oil heavily with WD40 and put aside. Then we start on the barrel. Pull the tooth pick and pour the S.G. out, then start with a wet patch, Simple Green again. Then up to 5 or so dry patches using both sides. If its not clean repeat the wet patch and dry patches cycle. Usually I never need to go as far as the third cycle. Touch the final few dry patches to your cheek, a patch that is not quite dry will feel cool to the cheek, but your finger tips will never tell the diffierence. Once you have dry patches then oil, I use WD40. Remember most oils will oxidise to a brown film giving you a heart attack thinking RUST. Here in humid East central Pa this routine wirks well for me..BJH

[Daryl]

I-too, use only WD40 as an oil.

After drying the bore with multiple patches, the last grabbing in the bore, difficult to remove as that shows it is bone dry & squeaky clean, the bore is sprayed with a pump sprayer of WD40 (or aerosol at rondy) until it runs freely out the nipple seat or vent - THEN I pump a patch up and down the bore on a rod with jag, which really blasts the excess WD40 out the barrel's vent or nipple seat. The gun is wiped down with this patch and stored muzzle down. No rust after 1 day, 3 days , 5 months or 8 years.

I'm happy with this cleaning regime. At rondy, sometimes, I'll clean a barrel on the stock by soaking, patching, but that usually takes longer than removal, proper cleaning and replacing on the stock. Normally, water is pumped in and out from a large container until it's clean, then dried and oiled as noted above. No rust- ever - & I get no brown either. The guns are stored muzzle down, allowing all excess lube/oil or whatever to leave the tube before the oil itself dries. I've never seen any film buildup inside my bores (or anywhere else) either, from WD40. I don't know who's story or statement that is or was originally, but I've never seen it myself. Been cleaning this way since 1975 or thereabouts. No rust - ever.

Notice I said the bore was flushed with WD 40 - not simply wiped with a damp patch - it runs out the vent, then gats blasted out the vent with that first and second, sometimes third hard shove of the patch.  I buy it by the gallon, shake it up and use it like it cost nothing. I put more value in my guns than worrying about the $0.30 of WD40 I use each time I clean them.  Use it like it cost nothing - I like that sentence - works for me and yet a gallon still lasts going on 2 years now, still about 1/2 full at $27.00 for the gallon - pretty cheap considering that's something like $0.27 per cleaning.  Here at current retail price, that's only 3 percussion caps + tax.  If that's too much, just done fire those 3 shots and clean your gun well.

In order to work as a water displacer, I think enough of it must be used to actually lift and displace the water - those are my opinons, only, not necesarily a hard fact. Makers sense to me.

[Stormrider51]

Muzzleloaders are the only firearms I ever recommended WD-40 for use on.  Left in place long enough it forms a yellowish gum that traps every bit of crud that comes in contact.  I used to call it "the gunsmith's best friend" because of the number of semi-auto firearms that came into my shop with a complaint of "won't eject and feed".  This was especially true of .22 rimfires.  The action would be so coated with black crud that it couldn't work.  A good cleaning to remove the crud and underlying gum and the gun functioned like new.  ML shooters seldom allow their guns to sit long enough for WD-40 to cause problems though.  It's great as a water displacer if cold water is used in cleaning.  I still use a cleaner/lubricate/protectorant but mostly because I didn't want customers to see a can of WD-40 sitting in my shop when I was telling them that it was the cause of their modern guns problem.  LOL!

Storm

[cahil_2]

My experience with simple green is that it will stain your stock if it leaks out the touch hole or you spill on it.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

One thing that has not been discussed is how tight the jag and cleaning patch are in the bore.  I clean my barrels off the rifle in a pail of cold water, and the double flanelette patch is so tight that it takes almost all my limited strength to get it up to the muzzle.  Going down is easy, but it is difficult to withdraw the cleaning patch.  This tight combo definitely gets to the bottom of the grooves, and flushes ALL the fowling out the vent.  I dry the barrel holding it in the bench vise, using two hands on the cleaning rod.  With this tight system, my barrel is perfectly and completely clean, dry, and oiled in 15 minutes.  I have show the system to others, and have had their guns return to the shop for one reason or another, and found them rusty.  So telling you how, or even showing you how, is worthless unless you follow instructions.
It is my observation that there are some who cannot or will not use a tight combo for loading/cleaning, and therefore must deal with the consequences...poor accuracy, wiping during shooting, and rusty bores.