Getting the lock to spark well

[4ster]

I have a Rifleshoppe Ferguson that came with an assembled lock.  At first it worked pretty well, but over time the lock is not sparking so good.  This is my first flintlock so my experience is limited.  At first, when it started to not ignite the pan I would nap the flint and it would be OK until I ran out of flint, and then a new flint would put me back in business.  Lately new flints seem anemic, with lots of mis-fires.  I am guessing I have sent about 250 balls out the end of the barrel.

It seems to me that at this point I need to treat the frizzen.  Even when new I never got the impression that it was an overly prolific sparker.  Searching here I have not decided between a Kasenite treatment or a full hardening.  Of course it could be something else like lock geometry or springs, but since it was working OK before...

Some pictures in case there is something glaring I just don't see:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4ster/6511304669/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4ster/6511304853/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4ster/6511304779/

[SCLoyalist]

 250 shots doesn't seem like near enough shots for a frizzen to have worn out.   I'd first contact Rifleshoppe and ask their advice.   Could be they'd suggest sending the lock back for them to look at, or a different type flint, etc. that would fix you up without having to resort to amateur blacksmithing.


Good luck.  SCL

[hanshi]

I don't have a lot of experience with "smithing" locks either.  Still I have had to address a couple of frizzens with issues.  That last pic shows a frizzen face much too beat up for only 250 rounds.  Yes, I'd contact the maker and explain the situation.  He may just have you send it in for a quick fix.

[Stormrider51]

I understand that the shop you mentioned has an excellent reputation for meeting customer complaints.  Contacting them would be my first step, as has already been suggested.  But before you do that you might want to get a different batch of flints and try them.  No flint lasts forever and some are better than others.  How skillful are you at knapping?  It takes a fairly sharp edge to shave away hot metal flakes from the frizzen.  Looking at the last photo it does appear that the frizzen might be a tad soft but that could be a trick of the lighting.  Let us know how it all works out.

Storm

[blunderbuss]

 

I do this all the time the bulk of the problem, on say Besses from almost anywhere, is that the Frizzen is case hardned and that wears through to soft metal and it won't spark, comes from useing cheap metal . So one could case harden it which would delay the problem but it would reappear. I've never heard of a Ferguson doing this but could happen. I've seen high dollar muskets with a frizzen soft as a baby's butt. I generally put a hard face on it many originals were done like this too.  First I would consult with the maker if you can get them to answer you.
The frizzen looks to me to be case hardened .see the marbled color over the scratched part of frizzen?

[Daryl]

Looks like the 'case' is worn off to me.

Going to move this to gun building, where the frizzen guru's live and breath.

[blunderbuss]

 certainly the case hardening is gone; also note the deep scratches in the frizzen

[Old Salt]

I'd be curious to know how you clean the lock after shooting. 
Do you remove the lock from the rifle?   Do you check the tension on the screws being careful not to overtighten?  I'm talking about the screws supporting the sear spring, and bridle on the tumbler.
Is there a possibility of overtightening the lockbolts causing the tumbler or mainspring to drag on the mortise?
Do you lubriucate the internal bearing surfaces?




 

[Daryl]

I don't know abot he scratches - ALL of mine are much worse than that one, yet spark very well, being made out of higher carbon steel to start. Most are badly in need of a re-grind on the 8" wheel. They all spark well, still.

[blunderbuss]

all  frizzens have scratches and need regrinding from time to time but those seem deep like they were made in soft metal

[blunderbuss]

I'd be curious to know how you clean the lock after shooting.  
Do you remove the lock from the rifle?   Do you check the tension on the screws being careful not to overtighten?  I'm talking about the screws supporting the sear spring, and bridle on the tumbler.
Is there a possibility of overtightening the lockbolts causing the tumbler or mainspring to drag on the mortise?
Do you lubricate the internal bearing surfaces?

Yes remove the lock after firing .I generally use a tooth brush and warm soapy water to clean the lock.Screws can be over tightened so use your judgment .Yes lock bolts can be over tightened too. Yes lube the internal parts.don't forget to lube the portion of the lower frizzen that rides on the frizzen spring,makes the frizzen work better. Don't hesitate to ask about any thing you want . 




 

[Daryl]

It's virtually impossible to get a lock clean without removing it from the gun first.

[Jim Kibler]

There is nothing wrong with case hardening a frizzen if it is done properly.  It needs to be held in a carburizing environment for sufficient time to for the carbon to diffuse deeply into the base material.  Somewhere in the range fo .040" or more is what I would shoot for.  It was standard practice to case harden orginal frizzens made of wrought iron.  I feel safe in saying that most high end custom made locks being made today have case hardened frizzens.

Jim

[Bob Roller]

You might try to see what the Rifle Shoppe catalog instructions say about hardening their frizzens. I had two sets of their external        parts for left and right flint locks of the sporting gun types and they said the frizzens were cast from 6150 and that this was a water hardening steel. I boosted them with Kasenit and did the water quench at room temperature and they worked and fired very well.
I want no more parts made from antique locks used as masters for wax injection molds. I have had a lot of experience at actually making lock mechanisms as opposed to assembling kits and these four locks took all the ability I could muster to get them to work right.

Bob Roller

[blunderbuss]

 be that as it may, case hardened frizzens eventually wear through and need to be re case hardened.why go through that? Just get a good piece of metal to began with or put a hard face on it.
He also stated that his weapon went from firing well to having alot of mis fires. What I think is happening here is the casehardening is wearing out on parts of the face not all of any flint contacts the frizzen at any one time so if the part of the flint contacts hard metal it fires if not it misfires. pretty soon it won't fire at all

[Acer Saccharum]

If the frizzen is too soft, it won't spark. The flint will actually bite into the metal and stop partway down the face of the frizzen. Also the flint may fracture bady, because it has bitten into the metal of the frizzen instead of scraping over it.

Your frizzen does not look that soft. There would be a big groove across the top where the flint hits.

Tell me, what color are the sparks? A dull red spark may mean that the frizzen is barely hard enough. A yellow/white spark means it's as hard as you want it to be.

You can try other kinds of flint, such as French blondes, or Missouri white. Try bevel up and bevel down, and vary the distance extending from the top jaw. If you find some combination that works, for Job's sake, write it down.

[blunderbuss]

I've seen the cock stop part way down on a soft frizzen but if one has a powerful enough spring it'll go all the way down, say in a musket . Also depends on how soft it is .If there is some case hardening remaining it will go down and maybe not spark,It getts iffy at that point until the case hardening is all gone. he did mention he ''started'' having mis fires. I deal alot with that in re-enacting where there is alot of shooting. 

[coutios]

You've gotten alot of good advise... Heres my 2 cents

Call the RShoppe first, find out what your dealing with. They may offer help.

Have you noticed any changes in the spring tension?

Do the sparks fall into the pan? You should see little curls of metal in a clean pan...

Keep us in the loop...

Dave

[Dphariss]

I have a Rifleshoppe Ferguson that came with an assembled lock.  At first it worked pretty well, but over time the lock is not sparking so good. 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4ster/6511304669/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4ster/6511304853/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4ster/6511304779/

Have not read the entire post but my RS Manton lock required facing the frizzen with 1095.
I think they cast these from some steel that does not spark well at least in my case. On a belt sander oit sparked more like 4140/4150 very poor frizzen material.
I treated the frizzen about 3 different times with Kasenite and it was good for a few shooting sessions 50-60 rounds then it would go bad. Facing was a permanent fix. Not a problem since.

Dan

[Dphariss]

You might try to see what the Rifle Shoppe catalog instructions say about hardening their frizzens. I had two sets of their external        parts for left and right flint locks of the sporting gun types and they said the frizzens were cast from 6150 and that this was a water hardening steel. I boosted them with Kasenit and did the water quench at room temperature and they worked and fired very well.
I want no more parts made from antique locks used as masters for wax injection molds. I have had a lot of experience at actually making lock mechanisms as opposed to assembling kits and these four locks took all the ability I could muster to get them to work right.

Bob Roller

I made a recessed breech Manton rifle lock from their parts. Made a mainspring the casting had a flaw, made a tumbler for the same reason. The frizzen string was weak and needed re-arching to get the pressure right. Had to face the frizzen as noted previous.  After this its a wonderful lock. Fast, super reliable, stiff springs and does not eat flints.
But it took a K
LLOOONNNGGG time to get all the parts.
I would hunt with this rifle almost exclusively if it did not shoot a one ounce ball and 140 gr of powder

Dan

[4ster]

Thanks for the help!  From the symptoms and the condition of the frizzen I am leaning toward the explanation that the case hardening has mostly worn through.  I think the scoring looks deeper in the picture than it actually is.  I think the problem is that the case hardening never was that deep.  

Instead of quoting everyone I will try and cover most of the ground in one reply.

I will call the Rifle Shoppe and talk to Jesse, he has been very helpful when I have been able to connect.  When I was building the rifle I called him a few times.

The flint does stall occasionally toward the end of the strike.  Originally I was thinking this was a weak mainspring or a frizzen spring that was too stiff.  It has steadily become worse and it don't feel like the springs have changed.

I do take the lock completely apart to clean and oil it, not every shooting session but probably every third. I make sure that the cams that ride against the springs are lubricated.  I polished these up a bit when I built the gun.  I have had comments from some other flint shooters that the lock time seems pretty fast.  I inspect it carefully every cleaning and judge if it needs the full treatment.  The insides stay pretty clean.  I am very careful about the amount of torque each screw gets.

I have tried different flint positions and sizes, it seems to work best with the bevel down.  I have just got some french amber flints to try but have not yet.

I think the clincher is that the sparks are dull red or orange, not white.  And the volume of sparks has reduced over time.  

I'll call the Rifle Shoppe and when I get it figured out will post the fix here.

Thanks again for all your brain power.

[Dphariss]

Thanks for the help!  From the symptoms and the condition of the frizzen I am leaning toward the explanation that the case hardening has mostly worn through.
<snip>

A high carbon steel frizzen should not wear through the sparking surface. I used Kasenite on frizzens to PREVENT the face from decarb while its hot not to actually caseharden the frizzen. This will sometimes occur and cause a very thin soft surface that has to be removed before the frizzen will spark well.
The frizzen should be through hardened and should be cast of an alloy that sparks well.
250 shots is not a lot on a frizzen.

Dan

[smart dog]

Hi 4ster,
I seriously doubt that the frizzen was ever case hardened.  TRS frizzens are not mild steel and can be hardened completely through.  Call TRS and ask how to harden their frizzens (probably something like heat to bright red or orange, quench in oil or something else, and the temper the toe to blue).  That will probably take care of it.  However, the Ferguson lock really requires a long flint to make sure the flint hits the steel high up and kicks the frizzen over.  Make sure you are using flints at leat 1" or greater in length.  Check where the flint hits the frizzen.  It should be up high on the face.

dave

[4ster]

Dave,

The lock came with a smallish rock in it, I changed that to 7/8 X 1 and with the bevel down it hits near the top of the frizzen.  A smaller rock bevel up doesn't kick the frizzen over like you say.  Any longer than 1 inch long flints keeps the frizzen from closing at half cock with this particular lock.

Again, thanks all of you for your help.

[LRB]

  As Mr. Roller stated, the TRS frizzens are of 6150 steel. These have only half the carbon of the 1095 steel as used by Jim Chambers. TRS says to heat them to 1650° to 1675° using Kasenit on the face, and quench in water. That temp is going to be a very bright tangerine color. That may work, but if possible I would either pack case harden it as Jim Kibler suggested, or simply half sole it with 1095. Either of those two solutions will take care of the problem. I believe you can get 1095 flat stock in 1/32" thickness from Brownell's. Some steel packing bands are 1095 also.